tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post1288173584041014198..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Peer SexismFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57411313139254069682011-06-16T02:02:35.468-05:002011-06-16T02:02:35.468-05:00Perhaps the post doc views the female post docs as...Perhaps the post doc views the female post docs as competition and belittling them is his way of getting some sort of "edge" over them?Quark Chowderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578502120144175363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76253735975264181552011-01-02T15:07:48.743-06:002011-01-02T15:07:48.743-06:00Short answer: yes IF it is addressed my management...Short answer: yes IF it is addressed my management in a supported & structured way. I am a female postdoc (science) & am in an identical situation. I made complaints to my manager twice over a year & only when I threatened resignation, did he sit up and listen. Even then, the situation was minimised and dismissed. I was asked if - because he was from another culture (Zimbabwe) - I had in some way offended him into behaving in such a manner.<br /><br />I think situations like this are rampant in academia where management rarely seem to implement any hardline approach to respond to the situation. I don't believe they're equipped to deal with it. Having worked in industry, I can say the situation would be dealt with far more quickly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4418748278410651982010-11-02T15:24:49.490-05:002010-11-02T15:24:49.490-05:00I have to agree that men are good at hiding their ...I have to agree that men are good at hiding their sexism until they become stressed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28914470478145249302010-10-27T16:17:48.799-05:002010-10-27T16:17:48.799-05:00I find it so sad that there seems to still be a lo...I find it so sad that there seems to still be a lot of sexism around in science! I'm a female graduate student in a very much male-dominated field, and so far I have always been treated respectfully.<br /><br />The whole concept of sexism, especially in science, seems ridiculous to me. There have been many studies that show that females are just as mentally capable as males, so how can people who call themselves scientists behave this way? It is logically inconsistent!PhyPhoFuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17057518830501689922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22395932199405562332010-10-22T17:12:49.125-05:002010-10-22T17:12:49.125-05:00Whether or not the male postdoc intended sexism or...Whether or not the male postdoc intended sexism or not, the truth is that his behavior is highly distressing to other individuals. If he has been repeatedly asked nicely to change his behavior and doesn't, then he should be fired. Why does one person get to negatively affect the lives of others, repeatedly, without recourse? What about what those others (his "victims") are going through, doesn't that count for anything??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84691889115973839022010-10-19T02:19:06.972-05:002010-10-19T02:19:06.972-05:00I have to second the "opportunity costs"...I have to second the "opportunity costs" caution... hearing this story, and hearing how reluctant the higher-ups are to ditch this guy asap, makes me really not want to work for FSP or her friend. And it would make me warn off any of my friends from working in that lab. By sheltering a sexist jerk you guys come across as supporting that sexism.<br /><br />I would want to be valued in my lab more than his female peers are being valued right now. How many hurt female postdocs have to be weighed against one hurtful male postdoc? Need a couple more women to suffer (or leave, or not apply) before the scale tips over to "not worth keeping him"?Bagelsannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40522215267745377592010-10-17T12:28:36.079-05:002010-10-17T12:28:36.079-05:00The issue seems to be addressed in a skewed, uni-d...The issue seems to be addressed in a skewed, uni-directional female-centric manner. Of course, there might be some lone incidents, but to generalize this into sexist issue seems quite illogical. The postdoc in this story needs to be fired from the details provided. However, do we know how the women folks (peers) behavior to that guy. I have witnessed many incidents as a new postdoc, where the women peers (established) in the lab are extremely rude. For eg. A general question asked in a polite manner such as 'How long will you be using the instrument?' will get a rude reply 'Check the calendar (sign up sheet)'. My point is that women are not always innocent, well-behaved, respectful beings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41869281622664713202010-10-17T01:31:06.598-05:002010-10-17T01:31:06.598-05:00Considering that the guy has "a perfect recor...Considering that the guy has "a perfect record of offensive behavior towards his peers who are female", seems to me the obvious thing that should happen in this situation is he should be fired.<br /><br />FSP, I don't understand why you and your colleague are so interested in wanting to "help" this guy with his "problem". Is he so much better than the any other postdoc that could be hired to replace him? Or are you and your colleague sad at the thought of him no longer being around to suck up to you, considering how skillful he apparently is at this?<br /><br />If I found out that a student or postdoc in my group had been behaving like this I would fire him without hesitation. If it was a collaborator's student/postdoc I would urge my collaborator to fire him, and wouldn't have any more interaction with that group as long as the guy was still there.appnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83694754930874693102010-10-16T12:53:07.681-05:002010-10-16T12:53:07.681-05:00If he has some type of deep contempt for women, or...<i>If he has some type of deep contempt for women, or women that are succeeding in his field, then he is probably a lost cause. If he just has the wrong opinion of women (either think they are less smart than he is, less hard working, whatever), then perhaps just the process of seeing that you are successful, hard working, smart etc as a sort of new mental prototype could have a strong beneficial effect on him.</i><br /><br />I'm failing to see the difference between "deep contempt for women" and "wrong opinion of women [because he thinks they're dumber than he is]".<br /><br />Oh, wait. That's because <b>there isn't a difference</b>.<br /><br />FSP, if this kid makes the distinction between women he can harass and women he can't, he's not stupid. <br /><br />He needs to be informed with as blunt an instrument as possible that every woman is a colleague, not a potential appliance for his use.Caranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62713992487071484372010-10-14T19:17:31.235-05:002010-10-14T19:17:31.235-05:00The particular situation I described is not at a N...The particular situation I described is not at a North American university, although it is clear from the comments that such things can happen anywhere. For the case I described, there may well be some university structure or policy to deal with such situations, but as far as I can tell, individual professors can run their own research groups however they want. Fortunately the head of the research group in question is a very good person who cares about all of his researchers.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4144996668049820822010-10-14T19:10:37.600-05:002010-10-14T19:10:37.600-05:00On nth thought, I'd like to echo the other com...On nth thought, I'd like to echo the other commenters who've said this is grounds for a lawsuit, carries enormous opportunity cost, and shouldn't be tolerated at all. Training is for technical and professional skills like networking. If this guy manages to alienate and offend consistently all the women he's working with, that's really not something to be casually "worked on." That's something deeply unprofessional. Sexism constitutes a "hostile environment," which as a country, we've decided we have a right to work without. It's not okay to let this behavior persist in any way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75872470028926389242010-10-14T18:55:24.965-05:002010-10-14T18:55:24.965-05:00Haven't had time to read the other comments, b...Haven't had time to read the other comments, but I thought I'd add that this behavior describes to a T that of a grad student whose lab I shared. After several years we figured out it was some version of borderline personality disorder. This student started out pretty respectful of everyone and started developing enemies, one by one, who were almost inevitably female. He finally turned against his female chair, but not before alienating almost all the other female grad students and postdocs in the department. Fortunately, his attacks against these people were so ridiculous that if you happened to be fortunate enough to see (or be on the receiving end) of one of his contemptuous tirades, you'd realize something deeply pathological was at hand. He's still doing science somewhere and probably burning bridges. I never figured out how to deal with him, but I've learned that it's important to ask for references should I ever be in a position to hire someone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-61522384937136572442010-10-14T17:20:37.027-05:002010-10-14T17:20:37.027-05:00I actually know of a few graduate students who are...I actually know of a few graduate students who are this postdoc in making. Last fall, I was harassed by 2 graduate students in my department, simply because they wanted to coordinate the seminar I had been working on for the past year. I had tried to coordinate meetings with them so we could all work together, they simply refused and would disagree on any change I might suggest. I went on to call me selfish and some not so pleasant words. Unfortunately, I was so disturbed by these emails, I deleted them, before I went to my graduate chair, who did nothing to stop this. I finally gave up the seminar. And then at the end of the year when it came time for awards, the same graduate chair praised the 2 students for reviving the seminar. Thankfully, I was not the only one annoyed by his email and other faculty brought up the fact that I had worked on the seminar as well. <br /><br />And now due to this and several other reasons, I am considering switching institutions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33828339011374498422010-10-14T09:56:52.848-05:002010-10-14T09:56:52.848-05:00There is certainly evidence for both sides of this...There is certainly evidence for both sides of this argument. As my short answer I think it can be masked. Which is obviously not ideal but can help discourage the behavior in other male students. It seems that this behavior is deeply rooted in the individual and, without some dramatic awakening, will always be present to some degree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22803978735113944712010-10-13T19:00:08.830-05:002010-10-13T19:00:08.830-05:00That postdoc needs to be fired.
Sorry, there are...That postdoc needs to be fired. <br /><br />Sorry, there are too many starving scientists out there in this job market, in every field and sub-field. He can't behave like a decent human being, he can hit the road. Cut your losses and next time, vow to do more background-checking and phone calls on applicants.<br /><br />Moreover, as Anon @ 8:40 pointed out, his behavior will likely cause enough turnover that it will be disruptive to productivity--who would your colleague rather lose, one jerk or all his female postdocs plus be whispered about as "oh, he's OK but That Guy in his lab is a total jerk--really, try to get in anywhere else"? There's an opportunity cost above and beyond the immediate costs, where suddenly your colleague is the guy whining to Professional Society Publication that he has no good applicants these days, not enough Countrymen are studying Sub-sub-sub-Field, etc. <br /><br />I don't really care if postdoc is sexist because he has personal problems, because it's a Monday or because his mommy didn't love him enough. Getting along with your colleagues in a professional manner is something he should have learned in high school, whilst working as a fry cook/grocery bagger/waiter. If he hasn't learned it yet, welcome to the School of Hard Knocks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1591836117080413542010-10-13T15:28:37.238-05:002010-10-13T15:28:37.238-05:00Tim ... ROFLOL ... guffaw ... have you told a few ...Tim ... ROFLOL ... guffaw ... have you told a few other feminist scientists to stop being annoying? ROFLOL. Because there are quite a few of them! You've got your work cut out for you.Keahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05652514294703722285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53105373215358730302010-10-13T12:00:13.503-05:002010-10-13T12:00:13.503-05:00Hey, Im just saying: if you are a scientist, then ...Hey, Im just saying: if you are a scientist, then believe what you can prove. Don't go along with what people say... that would be more like religion. As the great Carl Sagan said: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Moreover, please don't make everything about sex. It's not all about sex, and to be honest, i don't give a rat's ass whether you or anyone is female or male.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421551645441377580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83651811984327216872010-10-13T09:56:20.353-05:002010-10-13T09:56:20.353-05:00Yeah, don't believe anything you hear or see o...Yeah, don't believe anything you hear or see or experience yourself. Don't write about your life because that is gossip (because you are female). Don't write from your own point of view because that is flawed. Don't write anything that upsets Tim. Then go fix all the problems in academia in your own country and others because you have a responsibility to do this for all the younger women, but don't write about it because it might upset Tim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45214234697568721322010-10-13T09:14:22.846-05:002010-10-13T09:14:22.846-05:00FSP you are acting like a moron. Please try to rem...FSP you are acting like a moron. Please try to remain a scientist also in your gossipy blog life. Don't judge people by what you hear about them, no matter whom you hear it from. Judge from your own flawed experience, and admit that it's flawed, that is what comes closest to objectivity. Please arrive at the conclusion that it is not possible to judge this person, by lack of experience.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421551645441377580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-14879159512584911772010-10-12T18:34:03.423-05:002010-10-12T18:34:03.423-05:00His outward sexism is likely to get better with ti...<i> His outward sexism is likely to get better with time, just because post-docs are particularly insecure about their status and thus most likely to act out like he does. But the basic patriarchical logic that he lives by is unlikely to go away.</i><br /><br />Amen to that. I have seen many postdocs and senior graduate students (close to the job search time) acting out their frustrations on their peers, particularly those that are less likely to fight back. Usually these people mellow out with time, or when they do find a job.<br /><br />None of this justifies any of their actions though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-407946204720525272010-10-12T14:31:22.125-05:002010-10-12T14:31:22.125-05:00This guy sounds enormously average to me. The log...This guy sounds enormously average to me. The logic of patriarchy is based on comparison, men are inherently important and we know this because we compare them to various inherently unimportant people, such as girls. Under this system, a female peer who has just as many claims to accomplishment is very threatening. If a girl can do everything that he can do, then he is no better than a girl! Few things are worse.<br /><br />Superiors and underlings are not threatening in the same way. However, part of the reason FSPs high status is acceptable is because she is so rare, she is a token. That is allowable because having a few exceptional women proves how modern and not-sexist the field is. But I bet that this guy looks down upon fields where there are a lot of women in the professor ranks and consider his low female field superior. <br /><br />His outward sexism is likely to get better with time, just because post-docs are particularly insecure about their status and thus most likely to act out like he does. But the basic patriarchical logic that he lives by is unlikely to go away.yolionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41856411545334857032010-10-11T20:58:09.705-05:002010-10-11T20:58:09.705-05:00As Anon at 8:08 said I would watch your back if I ...As Anon at 8:08 said <i>I would watch your back if I were you.</i> <br /><br />This. The guy sounds like a very smooth operator. He's nice to you because you are senior and useful. <br />I know a number of people who are impeccably pleasant, friendly and civil, it is impossible to detect a hint on insincerity... You may even say they are your friends, but it is only because you are deemed as useful. A female colleague of mine shared how she used to be great friends with another slightly junior but now stratospherically successful female colleague, but the junior one -- an absolute master in respectfulness, friendliness and overall political correctness -- no longer finds any time to hang out with the senior one. My cynical opinion is that they were never friends, it's just that the senior woman's advice, support, and time were useful/necessary for a while but no longer are.<br /><br />So the postdoc is totally sexist, certainly to the core, as well as a jerk all around. But even more so he is very smooth and focused on his bottom line, which is career, hence nice to you. <br /><br />All you can do is watch out for yourself and try to protects others as much as you can.GMPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17872461021953583473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40975731652037476792010-10-11T20:40:48.363-05:002010-10-11T20:40:48.363-05:00Excellent post, albeit about a troubling situation...Excellent post, albeit about a troubling situation. I was in a position where peer sexism ran rampant. 4 out of 6 female PhD's (including me) quit or switched groups within a year, and another one nearly did. However, the male boss/coworkers in question were not obviously sexist in any way, and the less senior women did not have any problems. <br />I think it needs to be actively combatted by FSP and the postdoc's advisor, because it is wrong and for the sake of this person's future female coworkersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78315209669923055742010-10-11T20:04:10.730-05:002010-10-11T20:04:10.730-05:00Yeah, so I've been on the receiving end of thi...Yeah, so I've been on the receiving end of this sort of selective sexism in a couple different scenarios.<br /><br />As a graduate student, two of the post docs in my group openly said that women didn't belong in physics when the professors (including one woman) were not around. One of them maliciously targeted me, using his position in our collaboration as a working group convener to apply noticeably higher standards to my work than what was applied to others and deliberately not notifying me of his vetos of my work in a timely manner (once leaving me to franticly work on preparing results for a conference for two weeks after he'd told others this work would not be shown no matter what.) He ridiculed me in social situations and tried to incite other group members to do the same. He spent much of our time working together trying to incite me to do something unprofessional in response to his actions. He never did this in front of the profs. I never bit - I just told my (incredibly supportive) advisor what was going on. He also regularly gossiped about his (female) boss behind her back and spread rumors about her - but to her face he was an angel. I think it may have hurt his career, but not seriously. I don't think he really changed. He now has a permanent position at a national lab - heaven knows they need more sexist SOBs there. All the old ones are retiring.<br /><br />The other post doc was mostly just highly uncomfortable working with women. When another grad student and I were working on a project he was supervising, he let the other (male) grad student have complete control over his tasks. He micromanaged me, once complaining (seriously) that I had taken a whole five minutes to respond to an email. He even duplicated my work behind my back - he did not trust anything I did. I don't think it was ever a conscious decision - he just was inherently uncomfortable ever working with women. He somewhat improved after an incident where he was espousing the opinion that women should stay at home and cook and clean for their husbands and a (female) colleague asked him if that was what he wanted for his daughters. Obviously he does not want his daughters to become domestic slaves. He's still uncomfortable working with women but he's not actively destructive to women working with him.<br /><br />Now that I'm a post doc, I've also had some trouble working with one of our graduate students. We were on a long work trip and he simply would not listen to me. He repeatedly showed up to shift late (~2 hrs) and apparently even told one of the professors that I had acted inappropriately by telling them (the profs) he was showing up really late. He espouses equality for women, but on a practical level, he doesn't actually listen to me or view me as knowledgeable. I think the jury is still out on this one - but I'm not holding my breath.<br /><br />I have had peers challenge me or try to discredit me so many times I don't even keep a mental note of it now.<br /><br />I would watch your back if I were you. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Like the other posters, I'm curious exactly what he did, but if multiple female colleagues went out of their way to independent complained to his boss, it must be pretty pronounced and pretty bad.Madscientistgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11211394943035339771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15662474487953661232010-10-11T18:06:16.761-05:002010-10-11T18:06:16.761-05:00It's kind of funny (but not really) when peopl...It's kind of funny (but not really) when people leave rude and patronizing comments like "Go fix this", "Go do such-and-such", "Get over it" or whatever, and possibly even kind of ironic coming from certain commenters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com