tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post1505342018195524211..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Editing for World PeaceFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8702454699297944022008-04-16T20:42:00.000-05:002008-04-16T20:42:00.000-05:00Lurker commentsI left the academic world years ago...Lurker comments<BR/><BR/>I left the academic world years ago but I ran into this type of thing both there and in some of my other jobs. <BR/><BR/>There are people who will lean on you just because they find it easier to do that than actually learning how to work. These people are analogous to to those clowns we all knew as undergraduates -- the ones who wanted our help on homework because they could not be bothered learning the material themselves. <BR/><BR/>I say, to hell with them. I have enough to do with my own work and can't take on the work of other people.<BR/><BR/>I am sympathetic to people who do not have first rate research facilities. However, I taught at a fourth rate American college with lousy facilities for many years. The academic community never reached out to me. This is not a complaint. It is just a statement of fact.<BR/><BR/>On the same note, how would you or, indeed, anybody on this list feel if a native English speaker at a lousy American college asked for help out of the blue. I suspect that person would be sent packing.<BR/><BR/>Things cleared up a bit when I became a statistical consultant. People would ask me for freebies and and I would quote them my consulting fees. They would go away very quickly. Perhaps you should set up your own consulting firm. It is not really that hard.<BR/><BR/>In particular, get rid of the guy who gives you guilt trips right now. I think all of us who read this blog or lurk on it would applaud that.<BR/><BR/>One final note... If PhysioProf had not made his comment about non-tenured faculty, I would have. Getting tenure is the most important duty they have.<BR/><BR/>Keep on posting and I will vanish back to cyberspace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38733864092236700512008-04-16T05:52:00.000-05:002008-04-16T05:52:00.000-05:00Some people just can't believe anyone would ever w...Some people just can't believe anyone would ever willingly help anyone else. When they want something, they don't ask: they resort to manipulation. It's really quite weird.<BR/><BR/>As for the validity of the guilt-tripping scientist's comments, this follows a similar logic: <BR/><BR/>"Hi, male fellow scientist! Did you know that people like you (men) have cruelly oppressed people like me (women) for centuries? Because of that, you have to help me with my work and comply to all my requests. If you don't, you are a selfish, privileged person and besmirch the pure ideals of science."<BR/><BR/>Privilege is one thing, personal responsibility on someone elses work another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16948564886247685952008-04-16T00:31:00.000-05:002008-04-16T00:31:00.000-05:00FSP--honestly? I think this is nuts and probably a...FSP--honestly? I think this is nuts and probably a waste of your time if you are not directly involved in the research. I have done this type of editing FREQUENTLY as a reviewer or a co-author but I would never do it under the circumstances you describe. What I might do is recommend that the paper be submitted to a certain journal and have them request me as a reviewer if they wanted my input.<BR/><BR/>just a few cents!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-66151440305877821652008-04-16T00:20:00.000-05:002008-04-16T00:20:00.000-05:00Let me preface my remarks by noting that I am luck...Let me preface my remarks by noting that I am lucky to be a native speaker and writer of English. Further, although I can read, write and speak competently in two other languages, and do the same incompetently in several more, I would find it daunting to produce my work in a foreign language. Indeed, it would slow down the pace of my publication production if I had to write in another language, even if I had access to a supporting writer who was technically competent in that language. Were it necessary for me to prepare my work in another language though, you can be certain that the content itself would be polished to the finest correctness no matter how awkward the writing might be.<BR/><BR/>As a mathematician who is an active referee (3 - 5 papers per year not counting multiple revisions) for several journals, I am increasingly convinced that mathematicians in the West are essentially subsidizing mathematics in Asia. Further, while I realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, I have nonetheless seen evidence that my modeling correct writing has had minimal impact on the subsequent work of certain authors. A recent discussion with a senior editor for a major journal suggests that the editorial boards of math journals are beginning to grapple with this reality. While encouraging the development of mathematics (and more broadly, sciences) in Asia and engaging those mathematicians (and scientists) is beneficial for everyone, it is not fair to ask mathematicians (and scientists) in the West to assume the unrecognized and uncompensated responsibility for making work from Asia publishable here. To the degree that we neglect our own work or other obligations (family, friends, students) so that we can interpret, correct and rewrite papers for nonnative speakers, we should establish limits on our willingness to do so. Of course, if your department chair and dean believe that spending many hours doing editorial work for others compensates for your reduced productivity, then your situation is different from mine. At some point, there needs to be a professional carrot. If I have to not only correct simple issues such as verb tenses or singular-plural conflicts, but also wrestle with poor mathematics, then perhaps I should have some authorship rights acknowledged in the final product.<BR/><BR/>Just my two cents. (Hey ,there goes a day's salary!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1484883828570190942008-04-16T00:11:00.000-05:002008-04-16T00:11:00.000-05:00Like you said with the guilt tripping person, you ...Like you said with the guilt tripping person, you 'would prefer a simple “Will you please help me with X?”'.<BR/><BR/>The solution is simple. Tell them exactly that next time in the shortest amount of space possible. No more whining from them. Just a simple request. I doubt that they would refuse editing from them on and they would follow your instruction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81344781556107613672008-04-15T19:24:00.000-05:002008-04-15T19:24:00.000-05:00Just like you can't help every street beggar, you ...<I>Just like you can't help every street beggar, you can't help every scientist.</I><BR/><BR/>I love that analogy! That's how I feel every time I submit a grant to NIH, like a fucking street beggar.<BR/><BR/>"Spare a million for some soup and a coffee?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-61927573711149343322008-04-15T16:27:00.000-05:002008-04-15T16:27:00.000-05:00Scientists who are junior and/or have limited acce...Scientists who are junior and/or have limited access to resources: Yes.<BR/><BR/>Scientists who are high level and are looking for free work and to exploit: No.<BR/><BR/>Jerks: No.<BR/><BR/>Helping non-native speakers, especially from countries who can ill-afford professsional proofreading, is a duty that we should all occasionally undertake. It can also be enlightening in its own way about how we see language etc. But we don't 'owe' anyone anything, especially someone who is ungrateful, demanding, or lazy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13289250915399804922008-04-15T16:15:00.000-05:002008-04-15T16:15:00.000-05:00It is possible that your colleagues do not see you...It is possible that your colleagues do not see you as a "clerical worker" and that your gender is unrelated to these requests. My father, an MSP at a major research institution, has been helping foreign colleagues write manuscripts in English for many years. I believe he even did it as an assistant prof. I always assumed that editing for grammar was a common activity (especially if you know the foreign researcher) and that most other professors would do the same. I am a little shocked by how many of your readers seem to think that helping other people is a waste of time. To me, sharing knowledge and helping others is half the reason to go into academic science, instead of industry.Becky Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13822321397527695015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31117760707592277942008-04-15T14:59:00.000-05:002008-04-15T14:59:00.000-05:00Ah, one of my fondest memories from grad school wa...Ah, one of my fondest memories from grad school was reviewing an international colleague's paper for some class or other. It was, actually, fairly well written--it was just not written correctly (and I wish I could remember what that sentence was; three readings to realize, yes, it is in fact absolutely correct grammatically and doesn't mean a thing). I read another of her papers later in the semester. None of the errors I'd noted in the first paper were repeated (few interesting new ones, but dang she had the stuff we discussed cold). I was impressed (I'm hopeless with language learning and her first was not even in the Indo-European family).<BR/><BR/>As to people who refuse to be corrected on the science, it happens in all editing. Write them off and waste no more time. As I tell the fiction class I sit in on each year, every writing conference, editors explain in panels how to get your work out of the slush pile and read (use correct MS format and you're literally three quarters of the way there) & <B>every</B> time some (unpublished) author tries to argue with them, not comprehending it's not a discussion.usagibrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08922403352955062098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17580638990906024552008-04-15T14:40:00.000-05:002008-04-15T14:40:00.000-05:00This is off-topic, so feel free to delete is as a ...This is off-topic, so feel free to delete is as a comment, but if I remember right, you've served in faculty search processes, haven't you?<BR/><BR/>I was wondering if you had any insight/comments on what YFS posted about here: http://youngfemalescientist.blogspot.com/2008/04/accidental-information.html<BR/>I sadly find those scenarios believable; I was wondering how widespread you think they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29639627221772985842008-04-15T13:50:00.000-05:002008-04-15T13:50:00.000-05:00I don't believe this is a realistic expectation, e...I don't believe this is a realistic expectation, especially when there are actual services available. If you are not involved with the science, then it isn't worth your time. The person who is guilt-tripping you obviously has no respect for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89540379638564533642008-04-15T13:30:00.000-05:002008-04-15T13:30:00.000-05:00I also do a lot of this, being one of very few nat...I also do a lot of this, being one of very few native English speakers in my working environment.<BR/><BR/>Most people ask me very politely and try to make it as little work as possible. On the rare occasions when I've had to refuse for reasons of time or inclination, it doesn't upset the U.N.<BR/><BR/>I get out of it a sense of what is going on in my institution and provide an element of service willingly, rather than get forcibly named to certain committees and the like. Word gets around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-58938008841724940462008-04-15T13:03:00.000-05:002008-04-15T13:03:00.000-05:00Recently I wrote a paper with two collaborators (g...Recently I wrote a paper with two collaborators (germans, but living in the US). I am also not a native speaker, but when I write papers (as opposed to quick blog entries ;-) ) I can write well; it takes me forever though. Anyhow, THEY corrected my English, putting in some constructions taken verbatim from German, such as putting the verb at the end....<BR/>Other than that, I often ask colleagues and/or friends to proofread, especially for VIP journals when style is an important component of getting the paper through. Occasionally, I pay (ie my unemployed friend, while my colleagues don't get paid, but they get to pick my brains on their science, so I consider it a pretty fair exchange).<BR/>I'm surprised that people ask for help, and give it for granted too. It's especially troubling that they don't want the science advice. I'd do some sort of triaging, ie if something is hopeless, tactfully say that if you were to review the paper you'd want to see x and y. If x and y are not available at their place, they can collaborate: many countries view collaborations with US/first word countries quite favorably, and the authors won't be penalized for that.<BR/>A lot of people have this weird idea that getting a paper published is a number game, and they send clearly flawed manuscripts out hoping to get through (or to limit the amount of work to what the reviewers ask). (that's true of some American authors too).chemcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00098595895344578873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75067490366825903112008-04-15T12:37:00.000-05:002008-04-15T12:37:00.000-05:00I've never gotten a request from someone that I di...I've never gotten a request from someone that I didn't know in some capacity to help edit a non-English manuscript. I have received requests from people I met only briefly (at a conference), but I was still happy to help edit their papers. I agree that helping them with editing feels like the right thing to do, doesn't take an inordinate amount of time, and furthers science.<BR/><BR/>I think the relationship-less requests are odd, and quite possibly falling into the trap of assuming you must be a technical advisor/secretary for the "real scientists" (ie the men) in your department. How else did they choose YOU?<BR/><BR/>Just like you can't help every street beggar, you can't help every scientist. Your efforts are probably better spent helping the international students within your own department. If all else fails, this is a great exercise for graduate students because they WILL have to edit non-native English writing in their future careers and it helps to have practice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26079035078775066702008-04-15T12:01:00.000-05:002008-04-15T12:01:00.000-05:00Regarding your playing games comment -- I agree. ...Regarding your playing games comment -- I agree. <BR/><BR/>But what are you really trying to accomplish? Pick whatever you want that to be, and then go with it. <BR/><BR/>My thought would be to spread the love -- fussy manipulator guy has had his share, so give your time to those who haven't had that kind of help yet. But it really comes down to what you want to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15446217780865190662008-04-15T11:57:00.000-05:002008-04-15T11:57:00.000-05:00For example, last year I edited a manuscript that ...<I>For example, last year I edited a manuscript that clearly needed data that were easy for me to acquire but impossible for the author, owing to lack of facilities in his country; it took me only a few hours to get the data for him.</I><BR/><BR/>I hope you were made a co-author for that level of help - in my field, people are regularly made co-authors for much less work than that.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07738706550175991130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62526185861980018532008-04-15T11:04:00.000-05:002008-04-15T11:04:00.000-05:00I've done some of the same sort of editing myself,...I've done some of the same sort of editing myself, and while I don't mind at all in the abstract, like you, I have time constraints. <BR/><BR/>With that last person you mentioned, I'd tell him that I have other requests for the same help, and he has already received his share of the time I have to spend on such requests and forward him contact info for a couple of professional editors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44436960032120774222008-04-15T10:28:00.000-05:002008-04-15T10:28:00.000-05:00I'm not interested in playing games, even with obn...I'm not interested in playing games, even with obnoxious people. I can do a technical edit in about an hour, in extreme cases a couple of hours. For those concerned about how I spend my time, fear not -- my research productivity is not affected by spending an hour here and there.<BR/><BR/>Re. hiring a professional editing service: $100 (or so) would be a large sum of money for some of these scientists. If they happen to have $100 to spend on research-related activities, I can see why they would not want to spend it on technical editing.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85900335191958045242008-04-15T10:07:00.000-05:002008-04-15T10:07:00.000-05:00I think that the fee for service editors seem like...I think that the fee for service editors seem like an entirely reasonable solution for Dr. Arm-Twister.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35377292912356008452008-04-15T08:36:00.000-05:002008-04-15T08:36:00.000-05:00You may feel you have some responsibility to help ...You may feel you have some responsibility to help international scientists in general, but you certainly have no responsibility to help every particular international scientist who comes to you. Especially an obnoxious and manipulative one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23385721197612605272008-04-15T08:25:00.000-05:002008-04-15T08:25:00.000-05:00Journal editors do not have time to correct for En...Journal editors do not have time to correct for English grammar, they and journal reviewers have to request rewrites.<BR/><BR/>I am sympathetic to scientists trying to do good work in poorer work environments, and the resentment that I would probably feel if I were disadvantaged relative to language, when one language dominates. If my background were from the culture, I'd probably feel a need to help. But the help could get spread around: instead of editing these all yourself, can you recruit others of similar language/cultural background? work with the subfield scientific society to assist foreign writers? You might do more good in the long run. Sounds like some of these scientists may be more senior folks who resent having to grovel to a more junior (and female) person for help. <BR/><BR/>I sure hope you get in the acknowledgements! And add it to your CV under 'service'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85810554446942989282008-04-15T08:22:00.000-05:002008-04-15T08:22:00.000-05:00My main criticism here are towards your colleagues...My main criticism here are towards your colleagues who think this encourages people to think of you as a glorified clerical worker. Do they get these requests and reject them? Do you offer to pass some of these requests onto them? If you are the only person willing to do this, then their lack of help is what makes you a glorified clerical worker.<BR/><BR/>As for Physioprofs comments about how working on clearly bad papers wastes time, I'm curious how this compares to other forms of mentorship. Reading bad work and writing a critique with suggestions is extremely beneficial to scientists. For someone in a poor country with few colleagues to critique work, this is one of the few chances they get for this type of mentorship. Perhaps there is a more efficient way to give this mentorship besides through the peer review process, but peer review exists and is cheaper than expecting people to regularly fly to far away conferences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-24735157502002214312008-04-15T08:16:00.000-05:002008-04-15T08:16:00.000-05:00I agree with your colleagues who think you should ...I agree with your colleagues who think you should refuse, at least beyond the first request from any person. Yes, I think you are perpetuating the stereotype.<BR/><BR/>Doing good research at ill-equipped institutions is obviously a very serious hurdle. But you're not contributing research equipment or expertise; you're contributing English skills. English skills can be learned with the right resources. As harsh as it sounds, I think a used copy of Strunk and White is a better response than repeatedly serving as an unpaid editor.<BR/><BR/>In particular, Dr Guilt Tripper is a jerk. Dump him.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, for requests for comments on <B>science</B>, I think you're spot on! Now you're giving your colleagues access to a resource they can't get any other way: your scientific expertise!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13193253139133275182008-04-15T08:14:00.000-05:002008-04-15T08:14:00.000-05:00While I admire your generosity, this is not someth...While I admire your generosity, this is not something I would ever do. There are lots of technical editing services out there that are specifically geared for non-native-English-speaking authors trying to publish in English. It's my understanding that the costs are reasonable, and that sometimes the authors university will have a contract with a particular company.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, I know several people who work for such editing services. They generally have graduate degrees in the sciences but have left the academic world by choice or by force. Editing is a flexible part-time option for them that allows them to retain some contact with the world of science. I think it's a great example of how scientific careers can be made to fit people's lives and not the other way around.ScienceWomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252480538852802610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78360181711339013492008-04-15T07:51:00.000-05:002008-04-15T07:51:00.000-05:00I wouldn't do the editing under any circumstances....I wouldn't do the editing under any circumstances. This is not an effective use of your time. If the science is good, the work will get published anyway. If the journal editors really care about the language, let them do the editing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com