tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post1786047334120071807..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Extremely Large Esoteric CatsFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33335224798101934732010-01-18T18:35:11.227-06:002010-01-18T18:35:11.227-06:00I have some extremely large cats. I may have menti...<i>I have some extremely large cats. I may have mentioned that before.</i><br /><br />Do you have a Vegas magic show with them?Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18651663134051058142010-01-17T12:08:58.390-06:002010-01-17T12:08:58.390-06:00I am aware, and don't care too much. I think o...I am aware, and don't care too much. I think our lives are pretty privileged but it takes a lot to get to that point. We work hard.<br />Also, in my field, we study humans, what it means to be one, what's human nature... I think I have many many dogs in the race, being human myself.<br />And yes to extremely large cats. And to pineapple hats And a parrot, too please. Stereotype me the crazy absentminded cat lady scientist and see if I care. I'll be doing good science, always.Ace Kittyhawknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63987431292967775552010-01-17T02:44:09.226-06:002010-01-17T02:44:09.226-06:00@Thinkerbell - I think it's understood and obv...@Thinkerbell - I think it's understood and obvious that when we talk about academics' job security we are referring exclusively to the tenured professors. Because in academic science, postdocs aren't even "real people" they are serfs and don't even count for discussion purposes (I'm being cynical but there's a reason..the official reason is that postdocs are technically "trainees" and thus don't count as a real job)<br /><br />Even assistant professors have more job security than the majority of the workforce. If you are given 5 (or however many) years to be evaluated for tenure and if you are denied tenure at the end of that period, well that's still a much longer probationary period than almost any other job in the 'real world' where you can be evaluated and fired within weeks or months or starting the job.<br /><br />As for the postdoc-limbo period where job security is null - hey I've been put on 6-month-long postdoc contracts which is reaching the limits of absurdity regarding job insecurity. <br /><br />So on the one hand you have the tenured profs who have total job security no matter what they do. At the other end of the spectrum you have the postdocs who are just as highly educated and also have years of advanced training and yet the majority of them will never get a pay raise or job security beyond 2 years or benefits no matter how hard they work or how brilliantly they perform so the only option for them is to drop out of the career path they have invested so many years to. <br /><br />These two extremes, existing together as part of the structure that keeps the academic system intact and running, are absurd. I left academia long ago (for the "real world"...).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57616676699665416942010-01-16T15:52:45.047-06:002010-01-16T15:52:45.047-06:00As someone who is still climbing the academic ladd...As someone who is still climbing the academic ladder, from postdoc to postdoc to next temp. appointments with fellowships that allow me to think in terms of 'secure' only 2-3 years ahead, the overall view of academics as offering 'job security' strikes me as hilarious. It would never, ever, be the first thing I would come up with when describing the profession or environment.Thinkerbellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32045741435981409162010-01-16T09:50:03.774-06:002010-01-16T09:50:03.774-06:00I can't really comment on the situation at Fra...I can't really comment on the situation at FrauTech's university without knowing whether that stat professor's salary (or rank) is accurate. It could be a part-time job, or it could be that that published number is just the state part of the salary. However, it is true that salaries at universities are driven by supply and demand and friendships and bitching and threats to take their grants and leave (see supply and demand). Inequities and inversion are common as a result. <br /><br />What prompted my comment, however, is the need to correct the comment about Boomers clogging the pipeline. Someone who got their PhD in 1958 is not a Baby Boomer. He is the father of one, likely hired directly out of grad school to teach the last wave of GI Bill students and the anticipated wave when Boomers started coming out of high school circa 1963. <br /><br />Professors from the peak of the boom are in their 50s and likely joined the faculty in the early 1980s. (Think Clinton and W, both 1946, for the leading edge and Obama, 1961, as it tailed off.) No professor over 63 is a boomer. <br /><br />My experience is that my generation, from the peak of the baby boom, was mostly locked out of academia in comparison to the generation born before the end of WW II. This is born out by AIP statistics that show my age group at a minimum in any histogram of the age distribution of faculty at research universities. See my blog for the data that show boomers were the least likely to get a PhD in physics. <br /><br />As for the original topic, professors at the Ivy League don't shop at Wal-Mart while ones at a community college or regional university probably do. Half of the students going to college are in classrooms like mine, where you might have someone in a dirty shirt who just came from working 8 hours as a carpenter or someone who is a refugee from Somalia. I deal with the real world more than most office workers.Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79305820497674661042010-01-16T09:10:08.076-06:002010-01-16T09:10:08.076-06:00I wonder how much of that out-of-touch-with-the-re...I wonder how much of that out-of-touch-with-the-real-world image is based on the stereotype of a male professor whose stay-at-home wife is out in the real world while he's puzzling over obscure texts. Or the similar bachelor professor whose house is empty and ignored.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33094546392498610242010-01-16T03:23:27.217-06:002010-01-16T03:23:27.217-06:00to the Anon8:03 who said And I really don't ha...to the Anon8:03 who said <i>And I really don't have to talk with anyone outside of the 'educated' world, besides an occasional 'hello' to the grocery store clerk or whatever.....Don't get me wrong, I think our job is tough and necessary, but *I* sometimes feel isolated from other walks of life. I feel like I would need to make a real effort, like join big brothers/big sisters, to get to know people from a range of backgrounds, </i><br /><br />I'm puzzled as to why you appear to feel that being in academia prevents you from interacting with annyone outside academia except for the grocery store clerks?? Don't you have any hobbies or interests that you are involved in and which are not related to academia?<br /><br />For example, among my academic friends, some play in rock bands, some play on sports teams, others coach little league, or their spouses do and force them to get involved too...I volunteer for several animal rescue groups and also particopate in sports teams. All of these have absolutely nothing to do with academia or the university community. Through these ties I have a lot of friends who are non-acadmics. In fact I have more friends who are non-academics, than who are. <br /><br />I don't think it's healthy to interact so exclusively with "your own kind". It's like being a hermit. Over time it gives you a very narrow and thus skewed view of the world.<br /><br />If you are feeling isolated because you only ever interact with fellow academics, then you need to develop and cultivate some hobbies or extra curricular activities and other interests. Broaden your horizons, force yourself out of your comfort zone!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59797410463807543932010-01-15T23:49:14.445-06:002010-01-15T23:49:14.445-06:00And I am still quite convinced that most of us who...And I am still quite convinced that most of us who have these unusual secure jobs at decent pay are real human beings. The fact that our jobs have some nice aspects does not mean we do not <i>live</i> in the "real world", unless you define life entirely by work and nothing else.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34893737905811062492010-01-15T23:22:25.669-06:002010-01-15T23:22:25.669-06:00Hmm, one thing that goes unsaid is that academic s...Hmm, one thing that goes unsaid is that academic salaries are almost always 9 month. That means that if you scramble you can pull in another third. If you can't fund that third, there is the death march through summer schoolEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41616373263438867622010-01-15T22:04:23.673-06:002010-01-15T22:04:23.673-06:00It is extremely rare to find a job that has total ...It is extremely rare to find a job that has total job security AND give you the freedom to run your own show AND where the pay ranges from decent to very good. Academia - more specifically academic science - is the only sector where these are possible at the same time.<br /><br />This is most definitely not the "real world" because it is not what 99% of the world's workforce experience. The majority of the workforce do not have freedom to choose their own work or if they do (such as artists and entrepreneurs) it comes at a price of zero job security. the majority of the workforce also earns a less than a tenured science professor.<br /><br />I've only ever worked in academia, and I certainly don't kid myself that this is "the real world". I always feel privileged to have had the good fortune to land this job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50105218167067474612010-01-15T20:39:03.299-06:002010-01-15T20:39:03.299-06:00It reminds me of the anti-vaccination people, who ...It reminds me of the anti-vaccination people, who blithely argue that scientists don't know/care what's good for kids but parents do, completely unaware that scientists often have children themselves. Those groups are not exclusive to one another!<br /><br />It's an example of how the idea that scientists don't have a dog in the race can be really harmful to public health; if the public weren't so eager to discount scientists as real people maybe they'd listen better when scientists insist that they don't kill babies for a living, no really, they have them too.Bagelsannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10604272000854728752010-01-15T20:21:13.642-06:002010-01-15T20:21:13.642-06:00I worked in a "real world" job for a whi...I worked in a "real world" job for a while when I was young before going to grad school. It was in advertising (not an ad agency, but a company that helped ad agencies make their product, so pretty similar). The day-to-day, hour-to-hour pressure to produce was much more intense than in academia. That's not to say that people in advertising produce *more* or *better* (however we want to define or measure those concepts) overall than academics; but they certainly produce something (whatever it may be) more often and on tighter deadlines, with more short-term pressures from more sources. <br /><br />In academia, we have to produce from one year to the next; what we do from one day to the next doesn't matter much. We don't have "bosses" in the sense of a normal job. Our phones don't ring with something that has to be done RIGHT NOW or else we will get in trouble.<br />(Some of us, esp. the more senior, do develop many regular time commitments, but the character of committee meetings, teaching, hosting seminar speakers etc. is still not the same as what I remember from advertising and what I think is common in some other kinds of jobs.) The lack of those short-term pressures is important, it's what enables us to think about deep things and solve big problems over long periods of time. But it's a luxury that most don't have - and it also allows for a type of eccentric behavior that not all of us indulge in, but that is possible, and that would be much more likely to get one fired in the private sector. I think this is one source of the "ivory tower" perception.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06360196047159387762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44800755747012956742010-01-15T20:02:20.811-06:002010-01-15T20:02:20.811-06:00The university professors that I have met or been ...The university professors that I have met or been taught by strike me as being just as human and real as anyone else, in the sense that they were aspiring, anxious, concerned, thinking, selfish, helpful, busy, overwhelmed, joyous, creative people. I just sensed they faced a different set of pressures and rules than one might find in other communities, but within the nexus of those constraints, responded as any human anywhere might...<br /><br />As such, neither business nor academia is the "real world". They are both simply human worlds- places where disparities of justice, dreams, realities, opportunities, rules, influence, and fashion collide.<br /><br />It is important nonetheless to note that business and academia are, in truth, quite different worlds. So what? Shanghai is different from Boston. Yet the people are remarkably similar, as human beings.Michael Markhttp://www.granderwater.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30101494240534996582010-01-15T16:02:28.196-06:002010-01-15T16:02:28.196-06:00How about these science cartoons?
There are many ...How about these science cartoons?<br /><br />There are many good ones on Vadlo search engine <a href="http://vadlo.com/cartoons.php?id=1" rel="nofollow">http://vadlo.com/cartoons.php?id=1</a>.Rachel Batesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76962076375831133232010-01-15T15:43:26.226-06:002010-01-15T15:43:26.226-06:00I don't equate the "real world" with...I don't equate the "real world" with having had another (nonacademic) career. I was talking about the fact that most of us professors do leave our offices and campuses from time to time; we exist outside of our jobs (and our desk chairs), so we can have opinions about the world, just like other people.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54780426237448585592010-01-15T14:54:10.843-06:002010-01-15T14:54:10.843-06:00I find it perplexing that you have never had a car...I find it perplexing that you have never had a career outside of academia, in the "real world" that people refer to, yet you convey the impression that you are sure academia is not so different. Why not ask people who have been in both? I would give those opinions more weight than yours.Nicolenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-74648037139408887142010-01-15T14:45:52.617-06:002010-01-15T14:45:52.617-06:00FrauTech: I taught at Tufts one year as a visiting...FrauTech: I taught at Tufts one year as a visiting professor. Salary: 30,000. I was living in a basement studio and eating mac and cheese. The Boston area is expensive!amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57995605979332128192010-01-15T14:05:48.301-06:002010-01-15T14:05:48.301-06:00Some observations:
1. All previous comments seem ...Some observations:<br /><br />1. All previous comments seem to restrict the "real world" to the US,<br />and most to "business in the US". <br /><br />2. Comments also seem to assume that if two worlds are different, one is necessary a winner, and the other is a loser.<br /><br />Academic research and industry-sponsored research have different aims. When they collaborate, tensions result. Does this mean that one side is right?<br /><br />3. Saying that a corporation's only role is to maximize profit for shareholders is an oversimplification.<br />Bell Labs' discovery of residual Big Bang radiation, drug co's research to produce orphan drugs, and some corporate charitable support are counterexamples.<br /><br />4. "The 3-10 hours of lecturing per week" measure of academic workload is ludicrous. This kind of workload exists only at research universities. What about time for research?<br />Do academics turn their brain off after 5 PM and on weekends? Run labs 9-5? Are only people in the "real world" running interminable bureaucratic meetings, write proposals and write long reports that will be ignored? Is such activity the "real work" we talk about in a "real world"?<br /><br />5. One of the origins of universities WAS religious/monastic, but that is by far not the only one. The Sorbonne was originally Catholic, as were Oxford and Cambridge, but the Grandes Ecoles (ENS, Polytechnique, etc.) were state sponsored and very non-religious in origin. State Universities in the US started through a federal "practical" program. Medical schools were often unaffiliated to religion as early as the Middle Ages. Engineering schools did not grow out of a monastic traditions.Janosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-36419218470871499892010-01-15T14:04:54.806-06:002010-01-15T14:04:54.806-06:00Academe (the magazine of AAUP) publishes an annual...Academe (the magazine of AAUP) publishes an annual salary survey that is more comprehensive than sampling a few job ads.<br /><br />The average salary of a full professor for 2008-09 was $115,509 in public doctoral-granting universities, and $151,403 in private (not church related) doctoral-granting universities.<br /><br />The salaries are much lower at lower-ranked universities:<br />$88,357 at public masters-granting, $84,488 at public baccalaureate, and $74,933 at 2-year colleges. These are all full-professor positions.<br /><br />If you combine all ranks and all schools, the average salary of professors is $79,439.<br /><br />The highest pay is for full professors in private doctoral-granting universities (avg $151k) the lowest for unranked teachers in public 2-year colleges ($40.7k).Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59366618899134415102010-01-15T13:35:19.068-06:002010-01-15T13:35:19.068-06:00So all ye academics answer me a question about sal...So all ye academics answer me a question about salaries...<br /><br />So my propulsion professor makes 191k (see my previous comment about posted salaries). He got his PhD in 1958 so he's had 50+ years of post-docs and teaching.<br /><br />My stats professor started at my university 2 years ago, after a post-doc at MIT, and makes 27k a year. Is there any chance he could be using grants to supplement his income? I can't imagine living in this city off of 27k a year when an intern working 30 hours a week where I work would make more than that.<br /><br />Does it seem like the PhD/professor market has gotten a lot worse in say, the last 10 years? I was looking at salaries for my professors and they are all over the map. Some are making 130k and 140k and don't seem significantly older than those making 80k and then there's a few making 40k or less. In engineering this seems ridiculous since an entry-level engineer could probably make 50k minimum out here. Any thoughts? Are there a bunch of baby boomers and older-than-baby-boomers clogging up the academic pipelines?FrauTechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03466617977964303158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82958936933118277782010-01-15T13:30:04.506-06:002010-01-15T13:30:04.506-06:00Siz,
I said nothing about fairness of faculty sal...Siz,<br /><br />I said nothing about fairness of faculty salaries, I collect one myself.<br /><br />However, I do sometimes have trouble arguing that slight budget cuts to universities are unfair, given the duress across K-12 schools, police, and welfare budgets this year.<br /><br />And I've never met a dept that didn't feel owed more faculty lines, more TAships, higher salaries, and more and better space, regardless of whether it would be a good investment for the State. How many linguists and ethnomusicologists are really necessary in this depression?<br /><br />And I have to say that a tenured faculty gig is a fun and comfortable existence - it always amazes me such jobs exist. I can see why 9-5 workers who can be fired on a moment's notice might be jealous.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17177758441385135242010-01-15T13:03:53.645-06:002010-01-15T13:03:53.645-06:00Amy- I agree with the rebranding of George Bush. I...Amy- I agree with the rebranding of George Bush. It was a stunning feat. He most certainly is a member of the elite.<br /><br />Siz- I didn't read John V's comment as saying the money wasn't deserved. Just that the combination of good money plus large amount of job freedom plus huge job security is uncommon.Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70859595516940615612010-01-15T12:31:27.078-06:002010-01-15T12:31:27.078-06:00I have a similar view to Nick. I have run run into...I have a similar view to Nick. I have run run into academics who have absolutely no clue about how decisions get made in industry, and why certain decisions have to be made- sure, that study you describe would be nice, but it doesn't add any value for the shareholders and they expect us to spend our time and money on things that add value. Not all academics are like this, though, so I try not to generalize. <br /><br />I will also say that I have friends who have spent their entire careers working in non-profits/government jobs, and they can be equally clueless about how business has to function. And to be fair, until I did a stint as a government contractor, I had no clue how that world functioned.<br /><br />I think the big difference is that a lot of people who go to work in academia never work in industry. Most people (in science) who work in industry have spent a fair amount of time in academia. If you've never spent any time in a particular "world", it is easy to be a bit disconnected from it.<br /><br />And I'd say business is considered the "real world" because that is where the money that gets spent in the other worlds (like academia) ultimately comes from, and because that is where the majority of people work.Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80450928014372094612010-01-15T12:10:56.485-06:002010-01-15T12:10:56.485-06:00Huh. I read that quote a little differently. It ...Huh. I read that quote a little differently. It seemed like she was saying that academics pretend to be objective and above it all, but we have an agenda and a set of biases like everyone else. But I haven't read the book, so I'm missing the context for the quote.<br /><br />Anyway, back to the ivory tower issue. I agree with EliRabett that a lot of it is based on our history. But I also think conservatives in the US have been working hard to promote the idea that academics (the majority of whom are liberal) are elitist snobs. I thought Thomas Frank did a good job of defending this claim in _What's the Matter with Kansas?_ It was a truly amazing feat that conservatives succeeded in convincing people that George Bush - an Ivy League educated millionaire and member of an elite family - was more of a common joe than your typical English professor, who makes $50,000 a year (or under $20,000 if he/she is an adjunct) and spends most of the workweek grading papers and helping kids improve their writing skills.amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29823821769782521612010-01-15T11:57:22.251-06:002010-01-15T11:57:22.251-06:00Hey John V. Keep in mind that those are averages. ...Hey John V. Keep in mind that those are averages. That full professor making $120-150K/year has a PhD, most likely some post-doctoral training (2-4 years) and may have been at his institution for 25+ years. You think that $150K is an unfair salary for someone with that education and time committed to their job?<br /><br />I think it's fair as all get out.<br /><br />I'm still trying to figure out how I don't live in 'the real world'Siznoreply@blogger.com