tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post2413505023300505221..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: That's StupidFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-46322932082310613822011-11-15T16:41:57.220-06:002011-11-15T16:41:57.220-06:00#4 but with the inclusion of economic scrutiny: ho...#4 but with the inclusion of economic scrutiny: how much money, how much labor, and how long. Unless you are in a slapstick environment, I'm not certain frequent #5's would pass as appropriate.A/Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55179961750221889422011-11-14T07:32:48.909-06:002011-11-14T07:32:48.909-06:00Usually it went like this:
Year 1
Advisor: "...Usually it went like this:<br /><br />Year 1<br />Advisor: "Do ridiculous task X"<br />Me: "Yes SIR!"<br /><br />Year 2<br />Advisor: "Do ridiculous task Y"<br />Me: "Are you sure? I don't think it will work, and here is why..."<br /><br />Year 3<br />Advisor: "Do ridiculous task Z"<br />Me: "I already did that as an extension to task Y, knowing you'd ask"<br /><br />Year 4<br />Advisor: "Do ridiculous ta...."<br />Me: "These are not the droid you're looking for..."<br /><br />Really though, we had a pretty good relationship on that front. The guy came up with stuff that was really crazy, or stuff that looked good on PAPER, but when you wrote the timing out for the 15 steps it would have taken way to long to be practical. But he was a good informed guesser and about 1/2 of the crazy stuff worked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64019452025684010542011-11-14T07:21:28.198-06:002011-11-14T07:21:28.198-06:00in addition to often using approaches 4/5, I also
...in addition to often using approaches 4/5, I also<br /><br />- give in on things I think aren't that important and won't cost too much time<br /><br />- sometimes my two advisors disagree, then we all sit down together and usually in these situations I get what I wanted in the first place<br /><br />- on disagreements about wording of manuscripts (which happen a lot), I often give in (which usually means using stronger "overselling" language than I am comfortable with) ... and usually, the reviewers complain and then I get to fix it and do things the way I wanted to in the first placeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34722371340164303832011-11-13T15:10:53.451-06:002011-11-13T15:10:53.451-06:00Students should keep in mind what is more likely w...Students should keep in mind what is more likely when they see an obvious "flaw": that their supervisor saw this and a way past it or that s/he missed this obvious objection. <br /><br />The answer depends on the nature of the objection, the supervisor style, even the relative understanding of the subject. For example, maybe the student is the expert and has already tried and shown the approach to work, or maybe the supervisor is the world freaking expert on subject X and it stands to reason that he would have seen the obvious objection.<br /><br />Making the right choice between #4 and #5 has nothing to do with politeness or time efficiency. It's about directing the discussion towards its more fruitful outcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48204027970444670852011-11-13T14:50:38.846-06:002011-11-13T14:50:38.846-06:00Trying without questioning has only had bad result...Trying without questioning has only had bad results for me.<br />In one particular situation, I located a professor on campus (in another department) who was better qualified to evaluate the research idea.<br />Ultimately, this was a success. The other-department prof enjoyed coming in and chatting with us, we all learned something, and the suspect research was shelved.Materialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212265123565984739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-72368832105495787012011-11-13T00:18:47.222-06:002011-11-13T00:18:47.222-06:00I tend towards "other." Most of the &qu...I tend towards "other." Most of the "stupid" ideas my advisor comes up with are random, off-the-wall ideas that she will completely forget about approximately 5 minutes later. I don't explicitly promise to do whatever harebrained idea she proposed then. I wait until she brings it up at least once more, if not twice more before I'll actually considering doing it.<br /><br />If it's clear that she actually seriously thinks I should do experiment x and I think that's ridiculous she's ok with a polite version of #5.<br /><br />Most of the disconnect comes from the fact that it's been so long since she's done lab work herself, and the area of research I'm in got going in the group (and in general) long after she was no longer in the lab. Not that she would ever admit that. Sometimes her ideas about feasibility, time or resources required, or ease are way off base. Not that she would ever admit this.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15719466889826047799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22737642005886947922011-11-13T00:11:02.608-06:002011-11-13T00:11:02.608-06:00I've moved from a #4 to a #5. The problem with...I've moved from a #4 to a #5. The problem with #4 is, if you don't shoot the stupid idea down immediately and go off to think about it instead, the boss may go off to think about it too, and convince themselves it's the best idea ever. This makes the eventual #5 much more difficult, and more likely to end in a grudging #1 and wasted effort.<br /><br />I'm not rude about it, though. My PI is not stupid, and he's been doing this since I was in diapers; he knows some things that I do not. However, I'm not stupid either, and I know stuff that he doesn't. If I think something is stupid, I will state my objection(s)...in most cases, I'll either learn something or I'll get out of doing the stupid. Since neither of us are wallowing in vats of time and money, the efficiency is appreciated.<br /><br />(Yes, I chose this PI partly for #5-compatibility. I have a "lively" streak, and my brain-to-mouth filter is not quite up to spec...I can pull a #3 if cornered, but if someone needs a #1-2, it's in everyone's best interest if we don't work together.)<br /><br />There are times when the PI/boss needs to pull rank and insist that something be tried. I worked in a company once that had a great mechanism for this; you had to do the experiment if your boss was willing to make a (small) wager on the outcome. There was a TurboTech there who had a "trophy wall" of dollar bills taped over her bench...from poor fools who had failed to respect her authoritah. (None of them were mine. I knew better than to argue with her.) My boss and I were pretty close to even, but it still had the desired outcome - more experiments, less complaining.HFMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-56029812481856333922011-11-12T21:11:36.221-06:002011-11-12T21:11:36.221-06:00I'm a second year geology grad student and I&#...I'm a second year geology grad student and I've seen almost all of these options occur amongst my fellow students and their advisors. I would say my approach is that of #4. I'm from the school of thought that getting a graduate degree should involve a fairly high level of responsibility for your project, so questioning suggestions shouldn't be looked down upon. If the graduate student feels like a suggestion is stupid to me that means either the student doesn't fully understand the situation or they know something the advisor doesn't (since each thesis should be unique it shouldn't be a surprise that at some point the student should know a little more about what is going on than the advisor). <br /><br />The "do what I'm told" scenario seems very prevalent amongst my fellow grad students with RA's. Some people consider this the perfect opportunity, basically writing their thesis as a job without having to plan it themselves. Unfortunately I knew a few RA students that didn't like to "do stupid things" and would question their advisor too much and ended up leaving. <br /><br />Personally, having an RA and just doing what I was told would have been academic torture. I helped plan my research topic with my advisors from scratch. This involved a lot of questioning in both directions. Sometimes, it paid off and my advisors would acknowledge some "good catch"'s I had. Sometimes I thought I knew better and this ended up blowing a day's worth of work, which I then had to redo, but accepted it as my responsibility. <br /><br />Another fellow student is trying to do the same thing, build a project from scratch, but had a highly directed and structured undergraduate research project. In this case, they aren't questioning stupid suggestions enough, and this is causing the project to drag behind, and the advisor to lose confidence in their ability to complete a thesis.<br /><br />So I would say each scenario can work, it really depends on the motivations of the student and the advisor. But this is just what I've seen.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09155711166727047629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38731827617977789542011-11-12T19:00:06.640-06:002011-11-12T19:00:06.640-06:00Combo of #4/#3 - once you're sure of what is m...Combo of #4/#3 - once you're sure of what is meant by the stupid experiment, ignore it until it comes up repeatedly. Usually it never comes up again. The usual outcome of a #1/#2 in our lab is that a few weeks later when you present the results at lab meeting you get a "Why would you ever do this stupid experiment?" from the PI who has forgotten it was her idea in the first place. <br /><br />And what about the reverse situation - where you have an idea you are convinced is great, but are told by your PI no matter how well you back it up that it is stupid and you can't do it? This has happened more than once in the lab I'm in and at least a couple of times what's happened is that the student ignores the PI, does the experiment anyways, and gets a great result.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30640807055583564482011-11-12T07:04:28.967-06:002011-11-12T07:04:28.967-06:00I demand of the trainees in my lab that they emplo...I demand of the trainees in my lab that they employ #5 with me and with each other. We have neither the time nor the resources to waste on ideas and experiments that are stupid, and misguided "politeness" increases the likelihood of such waste.Comrade PhysioProfhttp://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprofnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40189786951369879932011-11-12T05:18:32.182-06:002011-11-12T05:18:32.182-06:00Try 4 or 5, but it you are going to go for 5 you b...Try 4 or 5, but it you are going to go for 5 you better think carefully what s/he is suggesting. <br /><br />I mean, if your supervisor is extemporizing, there is a high chance that said statement is wrong and go for 5. <br /><br />But if s/he's speaking about his/her area of expertise you should consider the possibility that the statement is rather deep and you are just missing it. In that case it might be best to start with leading questions,as Michelle suggests. Ask things like "but wouldn't hypothesis X be a problem?" or "how would we overcome Y?".<br /><br />If after all that you still believe your supervisor is wrong go for 5.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-6842893722275388932011-11-11T23:59:49.631-06:002011-11-11T23:59:49.631-06:00Combo of the above: Ask questions to figure out wh...Combo of the above: Ask questions to figure out why they don't think it's a stupid idea, suggest my own non-stupid idea, get vetoed so swallow my pride & follow through with their stupidity, and spend extra hours in the lab each night pursuing my own non-stupid.<br /><br />Tell them why they're stupid once I've crunched the data (can't argue with a graph ;)) and provide my own non-stupid results alongside. Sweet victory. Suggest they buy me a coffee for all my effort.Michellenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-19768661831194066422011-11-11T19:32:24.226-06:002011-11-11T19:32:24.226-06:00I have a pretty well documented problem with autho...I have a pretty well documented problem with authority when I think that authority hasn't been adequately earned. This has been more or less a constant in my life, and as such I think that the more telling part that I can share is how my interaction with the advisor has gone. <br /><br />One summer interning for a company as an undergraduate my boss wanted me to do a measurement that I knew was stupid and wouldn't work. I knew it right away and asked him why he thought it would work. He gave his reasons, I gave the reasons I disagreed with him and warned him that it would be a massive waste of the short time I had with the company to do this measurement. He said, essentially, "I'm the boss, you have to do what I say. Just shut up and do it." And so I spent 3 weeks convincing him that viscous fluids do in fact flow into the pores of sponges. It was a massive waste of time and equipment, and told me a lot about his style.<br /><br />My current advisor (I'm now in graduate school) has a very different style. His suggestions are very rarely stupid, though they are occasionally very impractical (and he usually realizes this before he says it). When stupid suggestions happen, I make sure that he's suggesting what I think he's suggesting (since dumb ideas are rare) and then tell him directly that I think what he's proposing would never work. We debate back and forth about merits and he winds up agreeing with me.<br /><br />The more interesting case are the ideas that aren't great but also aren't terrible. I'm a very busy and very productive grad student, and so my boss respects my time. If an idea isn't great, usually he'll say something along the lines of "Well, I don't know if you should rush to do this right away, and I trust you to prioritize your time." Also interesting is when he has good ideas. "You should make this your top priority." "So...which of my 8 top priorities do you think I should work on first?" "I trust you to structure your time well."<br /><br />I'm gong to go ahead and put this on record: My advisor rocks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83818860086755698772011-11-11T15:48:41.530-06:002011-11-11T15:48:41.530-06:00Mix of #4 and #5. Not so tentative as in #4, but n...Mix of #4 and #5. Not so tentative as in #4, but not so blatantly rude as in #5. I would ask why. And assuming I really thought it was a stupid idea I would provide arguments as to why it would we better to something else. <br /><br />And then I would run to my lab mates and tell them what a stupid thing advisor requested...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-24022764603052347702011-11-11T14:29:51.387-06:002011-11-11T14:29:51.387-06:00I usually did something along #5 but in a polite/f...I usually did something along #5 but in a polite/funny way. My advisor (who was great by the way) often came up with funny ideas (often he was just thinking loud) and I often had to say 'no' to his suggestions. Depending on his (and my) mood I would do this using a joke ('yeah right, I'll do that right after I finish that perpetuu mobile I've started last week') or simply by giving him a couple of scientific reasons not to do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-68552854707113467032011-11-11T14:17:28.071-06:002011-11-11T14:17:28.071-06:00I typically did number 3 or 4. As a post-doc, I s...I typically did number 3 or 4. As a post-doc, I still do number 4, with some polite nudges.<br /><br />I did, once, as a grad student, give my advisor a variant of number 5. He made a suggestion. I looked at him, blinked, and said, "No." I got away with it because I was months away from graduating. I also did something bizarre once when I was a very junior grad student because I totally misunderstood my advisor. It ended up getting a very nice result, but his immediate reaction was "You did WHAT??!!" I think the only reason he didn't strangle me was because 1) my reasoning was sound and 2) it worked splendidly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-49660332347782671632011-11-11T14:17:10.235-06:002011-11-11T14:17:10.235-06:00All of the above, except #2. I don't have a pr...All of the above, except #2. I don't have a problem arguing if I think there's a problem with an idea of my adviser's. He _claims_ he loves being challenged and discussing. However, there are small problems.<br /><br />So first, we both present our ideas. After some discussion, _he_ decides who's right, often admitting that he based the decision on gut feeling or something someone said in passing at a conference or some other not-very-scientific reasoning. The burden of proof is always on me - I have to substantiate everything I say, while for what he claims it's sufficient that it just kind of sounds like it might make sense. Also, his willingness to listen to students depends very strongly on how busy and/or cranky he is at the moment. On the other hand, whatever one of his peers says is true by definition.<br /><br />One alternative approach I've used a lot is to go through collaborators whom I know to value arguments based on their contents regardless of who the arguments came from. <br /><br />I'm sorry I strayed off topic, this all just pisses me off to no end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7708166509461272212011-11-11T14:07:09.172-06:002011-11-11T14:07:09.172-06:00#5 for the postdoctoral PI, who likes discussions ...#5 for the postdoctoral PI, who likes discussions and does not mind to be corrected. It is easy to contradict him.<br />#4 for the PhD PI, who does not like discussions. It was not easy to disagree even in polite way. He reacted in very unpleasant way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-58382153565755154852011-11-11T13:31:58.918-06:002011-11-11T13:31:58.918-06:00Hopefully you have enough intellectual respect for...Hopefully you have enough intellectual respect for your advisor to assume at least at first that you misunderstood something (or it's being poorly or incorrectly explained) and that's why you think it's stupid. That was certainly my feeling as a student, and still is even now that I've graduated. I come from Eastern Europe though, so it's probably also related to being brought up with a lot of respect for elders. Also my research area is very technically complicated, so experience and accumulated knowledge are especially important.<br /><br />Of course sometimes the idea does turn out to be stupid, and it's better to say so (as bluntly as possible) unless the senior person in question is too sensitive to take criticism. Ideally everyone would have such high intellectual standards that they would be happy to have the truth come to light even if it makes them feel a little foolish, but people are not perfect and when you are the junior person you have to tread carefully...<br /><br />Personally, I'm not sure I feel comfortable enough with any of the senior people around me to be so blunt. I would ask questions to fully understand the idea, and then if I thought it was stupid I would discard it as politely and discreetly as possible.Math postdocnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11290942820856088502011-11-11T13:23:19.748-06:002011-11-11T13:23:19.748-06:00In my case it depends on the area that is under di...In my case it depends on the area that is under discussion at the time. My supervisor recognizes that on a series of topics I'm far more knowledgeable that he, and vice versa. We (mutually) alternate between 4 and 5 depending on the suggestion that either one of us has proposed, with the full recognition that 5 isn't meant to be insulting but simply a direct and frank response. We have a good, working, professional relationship and treat it as such: he wouldn't be much of a supervisor if he didn't take criticism himself, and I wouldn't be a decent student if I wasn't willing to either take criticism or offer up my own positions.Christopher Parsonshttp://www.christopher-parsons.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18500807376823674032011-11-11T13:22:29.125-06:002011-11-11T13:22:29.125-06:00I was faced with something similar with respect to...I was faced with something similar with respect to a statistical analysis. I protested (weakly) that the methodology suggested was old and obsolete, and had some major issues. I did it the way my adviser wanted, and my own way, and when they came out with the same conclusion, I went with my adviser's suggestions for the dissertation. He signed off on it, I graduated.makitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16946226160704777285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64461474457549153352011-11-11T13:07:01.283-06:002011-11-11T13:07:01.283-06:00#3, lots of #3. some #4.
My advisor suggested bi...#3, lots of #3. some #4.<br /><br />My advisor suggested bizarre things all the time and some former advisees warned me not to be led astray. That said, some of this PI's is somewhat notorious for very strange ideas that get funded...MamaRoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17960066973695475732011-11-11T12:37:41.153-06:002011-11-11T12:37:41.153-06:00One of my undergrad research advisors was a major ...One of my undergrad research advisors was a major idea generator and was always giving me recommendations that I thought were crazy. I usually dealt with that by saying something along the lines of "I'm not sure how that will accomplish ... because ... " And then he'd either agree or explain what I didn't understand.<br /><br />But it took me two years working with him to become confident enough to do this because that approach meant I was either saying he was wrong (or unrealistic) or demonstrating that I didn't understand something.sarcozonahttp://sarcozona.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85827775394012626612011-11-11T12:16:37.519-06:002011-11-11T12:16:37.519-06:00That depends on what the advisor said, doesn't...That depends on what the advisor said, doesn't it? 2, 4 and 5 are all reasonable responses depending on the situation. It's possible that you don't think you understand things and so you do 2) until you do understand it (in that sense it sort of overlaps with 4). 4 is probably the most common response for me - basically to clarify/argue it out over time. And occasionally, if you are really quite certain that the advisor said something stupid, you go with 5. That's rarely happened to me, but there were a few cases. For some of them, I was even right, shockingly enough hehe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26746058106130200372011-11-11T12:13:17.192-06:002011-11-11T12:13:17.192-06:00I do a combo of 4 and 5. I've never found it ...I do a combo of 4 and 5. I've never found it difficult to say that I think an experiment won't work and why. If it's diplomatically phrased, it usually doesn't cause problems. I once did a stupid experiment after much debate just so I could prove to the PI that it wouldn't/didn't work (it was a relatively quick experiment).queenrandomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00128796087827034559noreply@blogger.com