tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post2471907242346384542..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Run With ItFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38131914708533587742010-08-21T14:15:20.570-05:002010-08-21T14:15:20.570-05:00It is good to see that consensus here seems to be ...It is good to see that consensus here seems to be that if a paper is born co-authorship is warranted. In my own academic career so far I have seen more cases behaving like the assistant prof you describe than I would have liked. This is unfortunate because I do think good science comes out of the resonance of interaction between scientists. A particularly touchy manifestation of this issue the following: You are leaving your mentor's group to found your own lab. To whom would the ideas you have generated belong? Given my own experience in this regard I have made it a point to discuss this openly and in detail with my post-docs when they are leaving to start their labs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79053769977299087162010-08-18T05:04:48.742-05:002010-08-18T05:04:48.742-05:00Make him pay on his tenure review.Make him pay on his tenure review.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26669371916333551932010-08-13T15:18:41.181-05:002010-08-13T15:18:41.181-05:00This doesn't exactly apply to the situation at...This doesn't exactly apply to the situation at hand, but in my experience, good collaborations make it very hard to pin down the exact origins of 'an idea'. Most of the time, the new idea arises from the interaction of two or more people's views on a problem. Creating an atmosphere where that sharing occurs is the challenge.EcoNerdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4426706578057656482010-08-13T06:35:10.710-05:002010-08-13T06:35:10.710-05:00It might be hard to imagine, but my description of...It might be hard to imagine, but my description of my interaction with this guy was just a synopsis of our conversation. In fact, it was a bit more wide ranging. He specifically indicated that he wanted to work on this new project all by himself (after thanking me for the idea) and ignored my very direct offer to collaborate on this with him if he wanted. I did not push the offer or make him feel bad about it. I look forward to his results.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10335955107742277622010-08-13T05:19:33.296-05:002010-08-13T05:19:33.296-05:00What's with the passive-aggressive "test ...What's with the passive-aggressive "test him to see if he offers a collaboration" dealio, FSP?<br /><br />People offer advice and ideas all the time in my world. If they intend a collaboration, they say so. I think it not unreasonable to conclude that you were not looking to be involved, given the way you describe your approach to this person. <br />DMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50733458202305896672010-08-12T23:50:34.961-05:002010-08-12T23:50:34.961-05:00He may not have realized you wanted to go further ...He may not have realized you wanted to go further and collaborate with him on the idea. Maybe he just took it as a technical discussion with a helpful mentoring senior presence far too smart and busy to be interested in collaborating with him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-60605428889316317882010-08-12T16:56:26.441-05:002010-08-12T16:56:26.441-05:00There are ideas and there are ideas. Some ideas a...There are ideas and there are ideas. Some ideas are really really original and profound, and some are only slightly different from things that are already out there. Some are so easy to execute that the idea is almost the paper by itself, and some will take so much work to execute that the idea is really a tiny part of the work and doesn't deserve co-authorship on its own (which some are suggesting, though I don't think FSP was).<br /><br />Yes, sometimes idea recipients are not sufficiently grateful and don't offer to collaborate when they should. But it can go another way too. Sometimes senior people who are too over the hill to do any work themselves "give" a lot of ideas to junior people as a way to try to get the junior people to do work for them. This can actually put the junior person in a difficult position, esp. if they are already working independently on things somewhat close to the "given" idea.<br /><br />I am midcareer seniority and I have been on both sides of this too. But I think if you give the idea away and ask for nothing in return you have to be prepared to have the gift be accepted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37177709478388592852010-08-12T16:31:57.585-05:002010-08-12T16:31:57.585-05:00Anon 3:07:
right, so it's a cat fight because ...Anon 3:07:<br />right, so it's a cat fight because we are both women. Had we been two guys, I suppose you'd advise us to take it outside. <br />Thanks for the constructive comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12675451266131450852010-08-12T16:14:47.151-05:002010-08-12T16:14:47.151-05:00Anon @ 2:53: I think her view of the situation may...Anon @ 2:53: I think her view of the situation may be drastically different than yours... <br /><br />I wouldn'd try to kick her off the grant -- I don't even know how one does that, you probably must justify total lack of activity or something to the granting agency; however, being a co-PI, she's not really a subordinate but a partner. Simply live and learn: take this as a lesson and do not participate on new grant proposals with her.GMPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17872461021953583473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16324030896417532812010-08-12T15:07:40.794-05:002010-08-12T15:07:40.794-05:00Anon @ 2:53: two words: Cat FightAnon @ 2:53: two words: Cat FightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31460040227122478052010-08-12T14:53:14.839-05:002010-08-12T14:53:14.839-05:00I've been in a similar situation, twice, with ...I've been in a similar situation, twice, with a younger assistant prof with who's my co-PI on a grant. BTW we are both women. Both times I would enthusiastically talk about something, she would act uninterested, run with the idea without my knowledge, etc. All sorts of nice things like that. The first time she did the work, and then offered me authorship; I was hesitant because it was her first independent paper, so I asked to see the draft; 6 months later, I asked again. The paper had been submitted with me in the acknowledgments. And rejected :-) :-)<br />The last time she initiated a collaboration with Really Famous Guy on my idea, without disclosing anything to me. I found out by accident, and when I confronted her she told me in tears that she didn't think I was interested in my idea!!! isn't that something?! So we agreed on a plan to go forward, then we both left for several trips.... And now she acts like nothing had happened....<br />I mean, had I done something so appallingly unethical I would lay really, really low and do everything I could to have the other person forgive me....<br />I'm so tempted to kick her off the grant. What should I do? <br />@#&&@&Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35252588427958676702010-08-12T13:21:30.007-05:002010-08-12T13:21:30.007-05:00I am caught up in the thought of "giving away...I am caught up in the thought of "giving away an idea" and wondering if I have ever "taken an idea" from someone else without realizing it. <br /><br />I once gave an idea to a fellow postdoc - he was preparing proposals for job applications and I (in preparation for my own job apps) had been kicking around an idea for a while that I didn't really have the skills to execute, but he did. It would not have made sense to collaborate, and we verified that he could "take the idea" and use it without looking back. <br /><br />On the other hand, I just returned from a conference where a collaborator and I brainstormed for a while and came up with some good ideas (his ideas? my ideas?). Since we already collaborate, it's not a big deal, but we did come up with some things that only I could do or only he could do, and I'm not worried about proper attribution of the ideas. If we collaborate, we co-publish, if one of us does the work, acknowledgement could be given but isn't necessary. <br /><br />I fear that, because we spend so much time thinking about things, there are ideas that I think are "mine" but may have come from an outside source (a comment at a conference, a journal article, a question from a student).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63122195862909880192010-08-12T11:52:24.561-05:002010-08-12T11:52:24.561-05:00Yeah I'm not sure. There's a lot of conte...Yeah I'm not sure. There's a lot of context-dependence here. <br /><br />For example, let's say that you get a question after giving a seminar proposing an experiment you should try and you honestly hadn't thought of the proposed approach. I feel like it's totally legit to say "wow, that's a great idea, we'll definitely try that and I'll let you know how it turns out" and not feel obligated to give credit to whoever it was that asked the question.<br /><br />If it's something a lot more general like an idea for a whole research program, collaboration might be more warranted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-19770739932172755692010-08-12T11:12:21.343-05:002010-08-12T11:12:21.343-05:00Ok, this interesting post makes me think of a tang...Ok, this interesting post makes me think of a tangential question...<br /><br />Were you assertive when you gave out this idea? Meaning, did you expressly convey to this assistant professor that you wanted to collaborate, or that you want acknowledgement for the idea if articles are forth coming?<br />Without this type of clear message, the recipient of your great idea must guess at your intent...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-2698084766577468852010-08-12T11:05:34.552-05:002010-08-12T11:05:34.552-05:00Is there something wrong with saying, at the time ...Is there something wrong with saying, at the time or shortly after, that you want to be included as part collaborator and author? Obviously that wouldn't work when someone has already gone and done the work and quickly published, as in Anonymous 2:57pm.Silver Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03131032620978696727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1934518954897958672010-08-12T10:38:24.617-05:002010-08-12T10:38:24.617-05:00I've been on both sides of this, FSP.
1. An ...I've been on both sides of this, FSP.<br /><br />1. An article I published just as I was finishing grad school was going to be the basis for my second book project. But I didn't do anything else with it, and 5 years later, I find that someone is working on a dissertation on it (with my article heavily cited in pieces of it). Fine, I let it lie fallow for too long. And honestly, I'm not sure what I would have done with it. But what I would have appreciated was something like what I did...<br /><br />2. Working in the archives, I stumbled across Really Interesting Document that I wanted to work on. But I kept hearing "Big Deal Professor is working on that." So I filed it away, but I kept getting drawn back, and BDP kept not publishing on it. Finally, I approached Big Deal Professor at a conference, and explained what I was interested in doing with Really Interesting Document. Was he still working on it? "Oh, no... I haven't thought about that project in years. Go for it."<br /><br />It's just a matter of professional courtesy.<br /><br />Of course, in the Humanities, we rarely do coauthored papers, and that seems to be what your situation may demand.Notorious Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08700875559325201086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78199174594821964412010-08-12T10:24:58.592-05:002010-08-12T10:24:58.592-05:00I give away dozens, even hundreds, of "good i...I give away dozens, even hundreds, of "good ideas" a year. Sometimes someone offers a collaboration, sometimes not. Most of the time no one has the spare time or money to follow up on the idea, no matter how good it is. Sometimes someone suggests a collaboration and I decline, because the idea was easy to come up with, but I don't want to do the hard work of doing the experiments to test it.<br /><br />There is a big difference between having someone steal nearly finished work and tossing out an idea that someone decides is worth investigating. It is nice to get an acknowledgment, and co-author credit is sometimes justified (if the idea is really novel and makes an important breakthrough), but ideas are really a dime a dozen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-258142512349545552010-08-12T10:23:29.146-05:002010-08-12T10:23:29.146-05:00You've done a wonderful thing.You've done a wonderful thing.Dave Backushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11472846910681816429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16508857517763089142010-08-12T09:57:41.895-05:002010-08-12T09:57:41.895-05:00Well, he may not want to collaborate up front , bu...Well, he may not want to collaborate up front , but that does not mean he will not give you credit. For most d00ds (well, at least all whom I have ever dated or collaborated with, for sure), admitting they need any help in any aspect is just impossible, unless they are hopelessly and painfully stuck. <br /><br />It sounds like he wants to give it a go on his own, which I understand: he does not want to admit (to a senior scientist, let alone a woman!) that he's anything but entirely independent. But I wouldn't be surprised if he contacted you a few months from now, referred to your conversation, and tried to engage you in the project. That happens (often when the person does get stuck). Also, it is possible that he will offer you coauthorship when a paper is nearly ready for submission (I have had that happen too). <br /><br />But of course, it could be he's just an idea hog. Let's hope not. You are certainly due for some type of acknowledgement.GMPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17872461021953583473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-71228827696181895562010-08-12T09:29:40.616-05:002010-08-12T09:29:40.616-05:00You say you gave the idea to you colleague. Are yo...You say you gave the idea to you colleague. Are you an Indian giver?, let it go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-36047187066603589822010-08-12T08:48:18.336-05:002010-08-12T08:48:18.336-05:00Ideas are cheap in my mind--the hard part is getti...Ideas are cheap in my mind--the hard part is getting the experiments to work, and dealing with the fact that the results almost never are entirely what you expect. <br /><br />If she/he could have done the work quickly with you as a genuine experimental collaborator, and you have no previous mentoring relationship (including being in the same Department) that might reduce someone's view of their independence, I agree they would have been wise to go that way. But getting co-authorship for a good idea that nudges someone in the right direction is simply not my idea of how things should work.<br /><br />Mark PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45846078118108206352010-08-12T08:38:44.635-05:002010-08-12T08:38:44.635-05:00As an assistant professor, I would take the collab...As an assistant professor, I would take the collaborative approach. not just because it's ethically the right thing to do, but also because I wouldn't want to risk pissing off a senior professor who might have a say on that upcoming tenure case (either directly with a vote, or indirectly by the gossip line to people with a vote) - a grudge to deal with would be far worse than one less solo-authored paper.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78619493235848405702010-08-12T08:35:41.050-05:002010-08-12T08:35:41.050-05:00Science is always a discussion and we all help eac...Science is always a discussion and we all help each other. Perhaps I'm a bit idealistic, but I think we should all be engaged in the conversation of science and "give away" good ideas. This happens frequently in seminars and conferences during the discussion periods. That being said, if it is an idea that you really want to work on prefacing the sharing of the idea with an offer to collaborate is great. What I think is bad for science is that ideas are not put out there and acted upon. Keeping an idea to yourself and never getting around to doing it is a travesty.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12750733389025084939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-42911504460447086122010-08-12T08:35:34.068-05:002010-08-12T08:35:34.068-05:00Anon at 6 am: I was wondering if there was a gende...Anon at 6 am: I was wondering if there was a gender difference, too! In my experience, ideas that I've shared with female colleagues (research and service) get shared or credited back to me in some way. The males that I have shared (not given) ideas to take 'em and...erm...run with them. <br /><br />This might not be a true gender difference, of course, but my experiences do make me wonder....Unbalanced Reactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407339711183651108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83670200547996924152010-08-12T08:14:12.829-05:002010-08-12T08:14:12.829-05:00I gave some good ideas away last year to our newis...I gave some good ideas away last year to our newish grad student (starting her 3rd year now) in the lab. Her project was falling apart, she needed a new one, I already had plenty to do, and I didn't have time to work on those great ideas. I figured she needed them more than I, and one of them has taken off for her. <br /><br />When she was telling someone else about her project (from my great idea) and how it came to be the other day, I was left out of the equation entirely. It hurt a bit, but not much. Of course, I know she's not a very collaborative-minded person, so it's probably better that I let it go completely. Oh well...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com