tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post3561807654899165876..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Academic Shopping AroundFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37861964753416504502010-01-31T12:16:55.965-06:002010-01-31T12:16:55.965-06:00Competing and retention offers were such a normal ...Competing and retention offers were such a normal part of life at LargeU, that I never gave it a second thought when TheBoss mentioned a competing offer.<br /><br />I was surprised, however, at how much this goes on at PUIs. Only in my first year here at PermaU, and I've already had two institutions put out feelers. It's a strange position in which to be. I am certainly (mostly) happy with my current job, but it's interesting (nice?) to know that there might be other options.Unbalanced Reactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407339711183651108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-71828560797194528352010-01-31T03:46:52.887-06:002010-01-31T03:46:52.887-06:00Anon4:53, when I was in grad school there were als...Anon4:53, when I was in grad school there were also other students that my advisor favored. We had a very big group, so it was more like 3 students were the Golden Children while the rest of us were ignored. These students were favored not because they had greater abilities, but simply because the projects he had assigned them to were the ones that the PI was most excited about, they just happened to be the ones available at the time to get put on his highest profile projects that he was counting on to advance his career in a big way. Those of us who were on projects that interested the PI less, we got little attention. It was infuriating. However, today, 10 years later, I'm doing better in my career than any of the three Golden Children. <br /><br />In a way, I'm now glad that I wasn't among the favored students because it made me more self-reliant and independent. I came to care litte for external praise and just focus on doing good work with tangible results. As long as your PI doesn't dislike you and is not actively blocking you from progressing (which I did have happen to me during my postdoc, it's a far worse problem to have, trust me!!), simply having someone else be lavished with praise and attention is infuriating but doesn't hurt you and shouldn't impede your progress.<br /><br />In my case I found that the favored grad students were less hardy and less able to weather stresses of research and academia because they were so used to their advisor championing their work for them and doing the critical thinking for them that their postdoctoral years were not very successful.<br /><br />I would say that favortism during the postdoctoral years has more of an impact on yout career than favortism during grad school. Why? because going from grad school to postdoc you have more opportunities to "make it on your own merits" without your advisor pushing things in your favor for you. There are independent fellowships you can apply for and as long as your grad advisor doesn't dislike you and writes a decent letter of recommendation, you can get good postdoc positions if you did good work in grad school. Besides, PIs always want postdocs because they are already trained so there are many opportunities to get postdoc positions.<br /><br />But going from postdoc to TT faculty is much more dependent on having your PI rooting for you and being your advocate because now the target positions are much scarcer and are hiring decisions are hugely subjective and based on internal networking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37994722699697428002010-01-30T14:57:44.768-06:002010-01-30T14:57:44.768-06:00I wasn't the favorite of either my grad advise...I wasn't the favorite of either my grad adviser or postdoc 'mentor' (see<br /><a href="http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/02/competition-survival-and-academic.html" rel="nofollow">this old post</a><br />), but (much) later they came to appreciate me more. If the favoritism shown to others is unfounded and has negative consequences for you, I hope it is possible to discuss the situation with the grad program adviser or chair.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4409226829287869012010-01-30T14:43:38.502-06:002010-01-30T14:43:38.502-06:00To anonymous about favorite students: it happened...To anonymous about favorite students: it happened to me too (I was not the favorite). I just got out of the situation as quickly as possible as it was poison. Sorry to hear that it happens elsewhere!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-14035884270093886542010-01-30T10:09:37.634-06:002010-01-30T10:09:37.634-06:00Great series of posts!
I have one question related...Great series of posts!<br />I have one question related to this issue. I am part of a dual career couple, I am on the tenure track (3d year) in a pretty good R1 university. My other half is not TT but wants to be, and there is little to no hope for it happening in my current institution. So I started applying and interviewing at other institutions (my other half is applying too). <br /><br />My question is the following: now that I am on the TT, should I explain in my applications why I am applying or let them guess and make (wrong) assumptions as to why I am applying? Since I am actually serious about finding another institution, I don't want them to think I am just trying to get a better deal at my current place. But I also don't want to jeopardize my chances elsewhere by telling them about my "2 body problem". <br /><br />Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-86161782428835485512010-01-30T08:24:51.787-06:002010-01-30T08:24:51.787-06:00@ anon 7:42
My adviser shopped around some the la...@ anon 7:42<br /><br />My adviser shopped around some the last few years. He was upfront with me that he might be doing so when I joined the lab, and what my choices would be if he ended up moving. When different opportunities arose later, we had conversations about the process. I think my adviser is unusually candid about these things, though, and I could imagine some less understanding faculty dropping the bomb on their students only after the offer was accepted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-5192050827515990442010-01-30T04:53:01.949-06:002010-01-30T04:53:01.949-06:00could you possibly comment on the issue of student...could you possibly comment on the issue of student favoritism syndrome? As a graduate student, I'm driven absolutely nuts, because my PI obviously favors a certain student in our lab above all others: everything she does is wonderful, everything I do is not. It is to the point that she gets a ton of guidance for her projects while I (and others) feel like I'm getting ignored, and her results go to high impact journals while mine do not. I'm not just imagining this either: my PI regularly praises her highly in front of the entire group, making obvious differences between her and us. It's hard not to feel like you are doing something wrong. I was wondering if this is a common thing, if you ever had to go through this, and maybe if you had any tips on how to deal with this? I know I'm kind of asking the wrong person (professor instead of student), but I figured you (and everyone) have probably experienced something like this once in their careers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52285169013169769552010-01-29T19:42:07.511-06:002010-01-29T19:42:07.511-06:00As a graduate student, I am curious if faculty sho...As a graduate student, I am curious if faculty shopping around at other institutions tend to be upfront about their actions to the members of their labs. As already mentioned in the comments, word travels and, in my experience, even the lowly graduate student gets wind of the rumors that their advisor is hunting around on the opposite side of the country. And while the shopping excursion may not lead to an actual move, the process can end up creating a lot of stress and tension within the lab.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-47874398348439617632010-01-29T16:54:10.466-06:002010-01-29T16:54:10.466-06:00FSP, this is a very timely post for me (another FS...FSP, this is a very timely post for me (another FSP who is considering moving due to active gender discrimination). How do you find out during an interview if such things exist? Now that I am here and experiencing it, it is so clear that it's been going on for years but it was well hidden. I'm trying to battle the system from within but it's wearing me out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85179407722090194242010-01-29T15:57:22.202-06:002010-01-29T15:57:22.202-06:00Even though I would like to get tenure, the idea o...Even though I would like to get tenure, the idea of tenure meaning that you're now stuck in the same department and institution and city for the rest of your life seems very depressing. So even though I'm currently not on the job market - because I'm working hard to be successful in my present job and I'm not currently dissatisfied - I do foresee there will be a time in the future when I will want to switch jobs, if only because it just seems depressing to be stuck in the same geographical location for the next 30-50 years. What I fear is that if I do get tenure, it will make it harder to justify leaving, it's easy to fall into a rut because it's the easier and more comfortable thing to do. (plus I don't think my family will tolerate a repeat of the tenure chasing years and their stress again). Therefore I think that when I eventually get tired of being in the same place I will probably leave academia at the same time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28714431072135463792010-01-29T13:47:56.275-06:002010-01-29T13:47:56.275-06:00Having been through these issues from several side...Having been through these issues from several sides many times, I have to agree with FSP's post, which discusses numerous considerations, but draws no blanket rules of conduct.<br /><br />It's always fun to disagree with CPP, however, on the rare occasions we differ. If one acquires a job offer solely to get a retention goodies, but get almost nothing, one is not obligated to do anything. There is always an excuse, and even if not, most departments are willing to believe they are so good that no offer, no other town, no other set of colleagues is really an upgrade.<br /><br />I wish we could eject people who abuse the job application process (except me, of course), and it does deflate some egos when retention requests are ignored, but people seem to get over it.<br /><br />A small effect of drawing retention offers is to HELP your department argue more resources out of the administration and polish the department's image on campus.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21288243530208075202010-01-29T12:59:12.940-06:002010-01-29T12:59:12.940-06:00So if you have tenure at one institution and you m...So if you have tenure at one institution and you move to another, whether or not you have tenure there too will depend on a case by case basis? Such as your professional reputation (did they recruit you or did you approach them for a job), whether the new institution is a step up from your present one or at the same level or a step down...what else??<br /><br />Do people here consider retaining tenure more important than anything else? If you are tenured would you move to another institution that was a lot more attractive to you and better for your family, IF the only caveat is that you would not have tenure there?a grad studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15133989627292030862010-01-29T12:53:55.087-06:002010-01-29T12:53:55.087-06:00How can the University be sure that you shopped ar...How can the University be sure that you shopped around and not the other way around? My experience is that the important thing is to get another offer, and realistically be prepared to accept it if it comes down to that...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77201660867838123132010-01-29T12:22:26.183-06:002010-01-29T12:22:26.183-06:00One of my senior colleagues at my Big Ten institut...One of my senior colleagues at my Big Ten institution found that shopping around for outside offers will not get you a retention package; only if another (peer) university approaches you first will they consider it.<br /><br />One of my colleagues at a teaching institution was told by her dean that the only way to get a raise was to get an outside offer. Is that still considered "playing the game"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9590048877695066112010-01-29T11:51:18.439-06:002010-01-29T11:51:18.439-06:00This is a timely post as I just returned from a me...This is a timely post as I just returned from a meeting with my Dean, who is on the way to the Provost's office to see if he can secure a retention offer. We are all going through the motions because we have to. It is the game. But we all know that the reality is what the new institution is offering is much more than what they will offer here, and not just monetarily, but also in those intangibles that make you happy. (Quality of life issues) <br /><br />When it comes right down to it, I was out looking because I'm unhappy. I'm unhappy because I'm undervalued. I'm undervalued so they won't work to hard to keep me. <br /><br />Just my thoughts, I 100% agree with this post, you have to do what's right for and your family.alhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12627085655945039699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91137310830430871852010-01-29T11:50:20.560-06:002010-01-29T11:50:20.560-06:00Psychology studies have shown that shoppers (the s...Psychology studies have shown that shoppers (the studies I've read focused on consumers) who are preoccupied with searching for the best possible deal, are never satisfied and feel much more stressed and unhappy in the long run with whatever choice they ended up making, than shoppers who are searching only for a product that's "good enough" and doesn't have to be the best option.shoppernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70922412581894873212010-01-29T11:33:57.176-06:002010-01-29T11:33:57.176-06:00Shopping around and interviewing JUST to get reten...Shopping around and interviewing JUST to get retention offers is disengenuous and a pretty sleazy thing to do (just because people do it doesn't make it right). You are stringing along a whole group of people and wasting everyone's time and money and misleading them, all for personal gain. First decide if you are serious about leaving your present job or not. If you are, then commit to that decision and if not, then don't waste everyone's time and lie to them. If you are shopping around to gather information to decide, then be upfront and honest about your intentions, that you are in information gathering stage rather than misleading them into thinking you are committed and fully engaged in their efforts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4454264727767680142010-01-29T11:17:25.899-06:002010-01-29T11:17:25.899-06:00I'm "lucky" to be at a school in a s...I'm "lucky" to be at a school in a small midwestern town that has very few amenities -- half of my department is on the market at any given time, and nobody takes it personally at all. They think it's kind of weird if you don't want to get the hell out of here. It's also very easy to explain to other schools why you're applying for their job. I agree with 9:57, though -- the constant search for something better can make you feel worse about where you are. If everyone in my department put as much energy into improving the local scene as we put into job applications, we'd all probably be pretty happy now.amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32950060739160892042010-01-29T11:13:52.171-06:002010-01-29T11:13:52.171-06:00Anon@9:57, here's the dilemma. I'm happy ...Anon@9:57, here's the dilemma. I'm happy in my current position. However, I have seen colleagues get *major* salary boosts, etc., via retention packages. While I may be happy here, am I penalizing myself to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year by not looking at outside offers? We're not in this for the money, but it's hard to ignore amounts that would add up to a kid's college education over a decade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45230503486872984282010-01-29T11:08:50.324-06:002010-01-29T11:08:50.324-06:00My general advice is: If you would seriously consi...My general advice is: If you would seriously consider another offer and potentially accept it, apply whenever there are appealing opportunities -- before, during, or after the tenure year. Don't just do it because you feel you should -- apply if you want to have other options (and would seriously consider them).Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54297324300271928962010-01-29T09:57:09.241-06:002010-01-29T09:57:09.241-06:00I went through 2 years of faculty interviews while...I went through 2 years of faculty interviews while on a "visiting"-type position before accepting my current position. Although I survived relatively unscathed and was lucky to receive several appealing offers each year, like middle school I would never want to go through that again... Maybe I'm delusional or naive but I LOVE MY JOB and I don't want another. I also feel the risk of damage is so much higher than any potential benefit from a retention offer borne out of interviewing elsewhere. There must be other people out there who are actually happy with their current academic situations!?<br /><br />Granted, it's been <10 years here, but hearing from colleagues at other places, nothing could touch what I have now in terms of how well it fits my, and my family's, needs. I'm convinced I simply could not find such a nice combination of colleagues, place, students, opportunities, support, facilities, etc., than I landed the first time. No position is perfect, but I wonder if shopping around actually breeds dissatisfaction?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81206693516532695702010-01-29T09:17:35.007-06:002010-01-29T09:17:35.007-06:00There's one more pre-tenure reason I can think...There's one more pre-tenure reason I can think of to leave: if you've gotten weird signals as a part of a pre-tenure review. For instance, in every pre-tenure review that I had, the teaching evaluations from one course during my first year (when I was only a visiting assistant professor) came up. I should have recognized that as a Sign. I didn't, and didn't apply for jobs that would have been lateral moves at the time. I probably could have moved during my 1st four years (when faculty at teaching-intensive institutions are particularly mobile - have teaching experience, and have lots of recent publications from the PhD/post-docs), but I didn't. And I still regret that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16697902652139385262010-01-29T09:01:25.394-06:002010-01-29T09:01:25.394-06:00My sense is that "stealth applying" is m...My sense is that "stealth applying" is meaningless - if you actually apply to another institution, word will get around. FSP, do you agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55641888759983359212010-01-29T07:26:18.659-06:002010-01-29T07:26:18.659-06:00What do you think about applying for other academi...What do you think about applying for other academic jobs in your tenure year? I've been considering this partly as insurance, partly to gauge my value, and partly to see if I can move up, but I'm a little afraid it would be viewed as selfish or disloyal to my current institution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87080390394116379542010-01-29T07:15:33.591-06:002010-01-29T07:15:33.591-06:00Thank you, FSP, for taking the time to write such ...Thank you, FSP, for taking the time to write such great and helpful posts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com