tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post3609004454093306350..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Being There, Postdoctoral EditionFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-14483211745803269912010-07-17T10:15:34.068-05:002010-07-17T10:15:34.068-05:00My institution has an excellent Postdoc Office. T...My institution has an excellent Postdoc Office. They are visible, schedule all sort of networking and professional development events for postdocs, and available to deal with issues if we have them. <br /><br />I probably work an average of 45-50 hours. Some weeks more, some less. I used to have a strict 40 hour policy (due to carpooling) but that is relaxed now. I find I'm much less efficient as a result.EcoGeoFemmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11236907917990309659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31166822824345907002010-07-15T23:33:29.150-05:002010-07-15T23:33:29.150-05:00We have a postdoc office and I think good support/...We have a postdoc office and I think good support/resources for postdocs compared to other institutions. However, checking the website now, I don't see any indication that they would intervene and advocate for a postdoc who was being put under unreasonable pressure by their PI. (I happen to know of just such a lab at our institution, where the PI has been known to say things like 'you think working 12 hours a day is enough?').<br /><br />Compared to that, I feel like I have it pretty good, as my PI is reasonable, flexible and (rightly, in my opinion) values productivity over hours spent within the four walls of our building. Nonetheless, I think there is a culture of excessive working hours among postdocs, where if you are not spending most of your life in the lab and exhausted most of the time, you're just not doing it right. I think this is ridiculous: did we really get PhDs just to work like automatons? Shouldn't we be rewarded for our creativity rather than our drudgery? At the same time, I am affected by it and often find myself feeling guilty and inadequate because I *only* work about 50 hours a week...thehumanscientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03230053788314461945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-5049184260325954172010-07-14T21:23:15.354-05:002010-07-14T21:23:15.354-05:00I have recently completed a 2 year postdoc at a re...I have recently completed a 2 year postdoc at a research institute in the US. It is seriously a research institute, with only grads, post-docs and profs - no undergraduates. My graduate supervisor let us set our own schedules, and looked for results only. And when I went to him with some results, he was available, supportive, and provided useful feedback. I generally worked 9 hours a day or so, from maybe 7 or 8am to 5 or 6pm. Weekends were absolutely not expected - my supervisor had a family, and expected us to take time for our own pursuits and families as well. It was a healthy, balanced situation.<br /><br />My experience as a post-doc was completely different. 60-70 hour weeks were expected. Weekends were expected. Vacations were for the weak. My supervisor chose to listen to some group members and not others (this division went along gender lines - I was on the unfavorable side of that line). I came out of the experience traumatized, feeling that I was worthless - something my post-doc supervisor definitely seemed to agree with. And yet, I landed a good industry job where I do interesting work which is valued and taken seriously by my supervisors.<br /><br />I think that post-docs are underpaid, undervalued, and tend to slip through the cracks. It said on my paycheck that I worked 40 hours per week. There are no checks and balances in the system. <br /><br />As bad as things were in our group, they were even worse in the lab next to us. Their supervisor would yell at them, verbally abuse them, and call them when they were home sick with the flu and demand that they come into work. This kind of bad behavior caused me to rethink my initial career path (academics). It was pervasive at my university. I would never, ever recommend that someone attend this university, as a post-doc or a grad student. I am not a weak person, and I feel that I was lucky to get out of that situation without needing therapy. Typical US post-doctoral experience? I hope not. But it was mine, unfortunately. Be careful. And when you interview with a lab, definitely ask the group members questions about their quality of life. Verbally and non-verbally, they will tell you everything you need to know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48215155841455597202010-07-14T07:32:11.915-05:002010-07-14T07:32:11.915-05:00I am a US postdoc. My postdoc adviser and I never ...I am a US postdoc. My postdoc adviser and I never talked about expected hours that I work. But, on my interview I did stress that I like to take vacations. I take 2-3 weeks of vacation a year and don't ask for permission. I tend to work 40-50 hours a week at work. I work hard, am very independent and productive. My adviser treats me more like a colleague than a trainee. I am on a fellowship and have taken advantage of that by sometime working remotely so that I can work and visit with family too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40485200643035498412010-07-13T20:28:35.695-05:002010-07-13T20:28:35.695-05:00In my postdoc interviews I found it more helpful t...In my postdoc interviews I found it more helpful to ask the group members what hours were expected of them than to ask the PI. They were generally very forthcoming, and by asking different people separately I could confirm that they were consistent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55400948439095026322010-07-13T11:19:02.382-05:002010-07-13T11:19:02.382-05:00I received no guidelines with regard to hours work...I received no guidelines with regard to hours worked per week. We did talk generally about career goals, publishing expectations, and what percent of my time would be on various projects.<br /><br />My hours are not monitored, but my progress certainly is.Bashirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01073624358675014820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78323659868304731092010-07-13T09:26:48.157-05:002010-07-13T09:26:48.157-05:00Anon 7/12/2010 06:00:00 PM
It's easy and fair...Anon 7/12/2010 06:00:00 PM<br /><br />It's easy and fairly obvious you don't work with animals (time points over time) or any kind of cells growing that you can't control but wait until they are "done".<br /><br />It'd be lovely not to work on weekends but then the animals need checking every day, even every 4-8-12 hours and then what do you do?! ^^<br /><br />And this not even counting simply stuff as "sharing machines" and then needing to use them for 8 hs straight. Not always possible within a work day.<br /><br />just saying.biological post doc in the USnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-49300611120175322612010-07-13T08:04:43.802-05:002010-07-13T08:04:43.802-05:001) Any biologist knows first hand from fruit fly g...1) Any biologist knows first hand from fruit fly genetics that there are "night people" and "day people". Forcing a night person to work 9-5 is a waste of everyone's time and energy. Academic environments, of all places, should allow scientists the flexibility to work when they are the most energized and inspired. <br /><br />2) Everyone stop reading this webpage and get back to your experiments!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-39826751471773550942010-07-12T21:49:26.956-05:002010-07-12T21:49:26.956-05:00I personally don't care what specific hours my...<i>I personally don't care what specific hours my postdocs work as long as they get some interesting and useful work done and are obviously making progress with their research.<br /></i><br />This is my approach as well. Creating an inspiring and fun scientific environment is the only way to get creative people to work hard fruitfully. Forcing hours is fucking pointless.Comrade PhysioProfhttp://physioprof.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3463531618794797802010-07-12T21:22:44.148-05:002010-07-12T21:22:44.148-05:00Currently a postdoc in the US. I've been bless...Currently a postdoc in the US. I've been blessed with a grad advisor who was very flexible regarding my work hours. That being said, if everyone would just come and go as they please, I think that would be very bad for the interaction among peers. <br /><br />I like the fact that I am flexible. I work too much, but at least I am doing it to myself. <br /><br />Also, I think the we-work-so-much attitude in the US is in part due to 1) everyone is far away from other friends and family, so your labmates turn into your friends so work and social start to mix and<br />2) not working efficiently at all (i.e. many hours surfing) and with less support (i.e. core facilities, techs) than on other continents so you have to put in more hours to do stuff that otherwise would get done differently or by others.<br /><br />I hope I myself will become a PI who can rely on his personnel to be self-motivated. The minute I have to turn into a police officer, something is wrong.Thinkerbellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-51399263319543287022010-07-12T21:18:56.176-05:002010-07-12T21:18:56.176-05:00What faculty say they expect in an interview, what...What faculty say they expect in an interview, what they think they expect, and what they actually expect can each be different things. My group seemed perfectly acceptable on the interview, but when I got here, I had to draw some serious lines between what was and was not acceptable for one of my supervisors to ask. He complained to one of the grad students (not to me) that I came in at 10 and left at six. Nevermind that I was going home and working 2-3 hours. But the real problem was not the hours expected of me. He treated me like his personal assistant instead of like skilled labor and he peppered me with insulting comments all day long. He gave me strict instructions for menial tasks and then monitored my work for compliance (with pointless aspects, like whether or not I used the same aliases on my laptop as he told me to.) It was really, really bad - not because of the hours, but because of the verbal abuse and boring, redundant tasks devoid of any intellectual challenge. I don't think he meant ill - he just is highly socially dysfunctional, probably mentally ill, and an extremely unhappy man.<br /><br />Still, save yourself before helping others. I rebelled, complained to the more reasonable boss, and basically said I'd quit if things didn't improve. It had gotten bad enough that I didn't care if I lost my decade of training - as long as I got out of that situation. No job is worth being driven into a mental institution. Plus if I spent all of my post doc learning to be an obedient, mindless robot, I wouldn't be employable at the end of it. I haven't really forgiven the faculty who put me in this situation - the witnesses and the enablers. I don't know if I can. If a particular faculty member has a parade of students and post docs (over several years) who all independently say he did crazy, inappropriate things on multiple occasions and these accounts are backed up by collaborators and co-workers of this faculty member, doesn't that indicate a problem? I don't get why this man was repeatedly able to dismiss his underlings as simply being poorly qualified. The only thing that saved me from this fate was an Ivy pedigree.<br /><br />Abuse drives qualified people out of the field. We're not left with the most qualified but those most able to withstand abuse. There are tons of excellent faculty out there who are great mentors - but there are sadistic supervisors too. And in my field, which requires multiple post docs, the odds of getting to a faculty position without at least one boarish, nasty, abusive supervisor are almost nil.<br /><br />Don't other faculty have some responsibility? Both moral and professional?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62410437437084988252010-07-12T21:11:16.751-05:002010-07-12T21:11:16.751-05:00I'm a postdoc, and I do theory, so there are n...I'm a postdoc, and I do theory, so there are no lab experiments to be tied down to. I don't have a supervisor, either, but am one of 10 or so postdocs hired by a "center" at a major east-coast university. I work with whichever other local postdocs or profs I want to. It's basically the ideal job: I work long hours, but only because I want to, and frequently work from home, where I find that I'm more productive when I'm at the "getting results" stage of projects rather than the "brainstorming ideas" stage, where talking to other people helps more. The one downside, of course, is that the job ends in the near future and then my odds of getting another job will depend on what kind of results I've gotten while I'm here...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-71490851990597062962010-07-12T18:53:16.899-05:002010-07-12T18:53:16.899-05:00I'm a physical sciences postdoc in the US who ...I'm a physical sciences postdoc in the US who is self funded (I'm the PI on the proposal I wrote to NSF which funds my postdoctoral research). I have a variety of "postdoctoral mentors" who help me with career navigation and research progress and I participate in a research lab where I help mentor several grad students. I put in 40-50 hrs/wk and take 1-2 weeks of vacation/yr. I have a toddler at home so when I am not in the lab/office I am completely offline. <br /><br />There was never a discussion with my primary mentor about how much I would work, but I think that is because I am self-funded. I work a lot fewer hours now than when I was a grad student at an R1 school putting in 70+ hours/week so this is heavenly.<br /><br />The way I see it is that I am now a professional and my career is in my own hands. I have decided that I probably do not want a job at an R1 (grad school was enough thankyouverymuch), so am happy with the progress I make working more reasonable hours. Had I not been self funded, I would have had great reservations being a postdoc for someone who required me to work >50 hrs/wk.FemaleSciPostdocnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21152197387894510072010-07-12T18:11:43.819-05:002010-07-12T18:11:43.819-05:00First-time poster. Great blog.
I am currently a p...First-time poster. Great blog.<br /><br />I am currently a post-doc at an R1 MRU, after a shorter post-doc at another R1. I've never made use of the post-doc offices, which seem to resemble social clubs more than proper university offices. More importantly, interaction with those "offices" hasn't been necessary. Not because I discussed my responsibilities at length with my advisors (which both parties admittedly neglected), but because I sought advisors who valued discovery and productivity more than hours. <br /><br />However, through a quirk of of post-doc status, I actually do have to fill out a weekly electronic time card at my current position, and am required to enter 8 hours per non-holiday weekday, obviously regardless of actual hours worked.<br /><br />I'd echo Applied Physics Prof's and Micro Dr. O's perspectives on productive interactions between post-docs and advisors. Mandating hours is missing the point. Fieldwork is a great equalizer in this regard. When you're out in the wilderness, you all work as long as possible each day.<br /><br />Finally, the post-doc's status at the university is highly variable. Whichever status (faculty or staff or post-student) that will benefit the university more in any given situation is that which is applied. Consistency would be nice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17429633414885228082010-07-12T18:00:59.574-05:002010-07-12T18:00:59.574-05:00To all of you that work on weekends, holidays and ...To all of you that work on weekends, holidays and nights. There is a word for you: losers. Get some friends and family, have a BBQ, go to the bar, go outside and go jogging.<br /><br />It is possible to get all of your work done in the day. Just ask yourself what you waste time on during the day. It could be useless seminars, useless group meeting or surfing the web.<br /><br />Your job as a grad student/postdoc/prof is not that important that you need to put all of this time in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-66492121132541336922010-07-12T16:27:02.176-05:002010-07-12T16:27:02.176-05:00As a research postdoc in social sciences at a majo...As a research postdoc in social sciences at a major US Research University, I am hired through the Medical School (home of the Office of Postdoc Stuff) and classified as a "non-matriculated student." The "student" status confuses the heck out of just about everyone, but it allows people doing their residency in the hospital to get in-school deferments for their student loans. On the other hand, if I had a teaching postdoc, I would be classified as "staff" and have a completely (better) benefits package with more sick days, vacation days, retirement plan, etc. As a "non-matriculated student," I get 5 sick days, 10 major holidays, and I'm not allowed to be away from campus for more than 5 days without a note from my faculty sponsor. I am expected to put in no fewer than 40 hours per week. When the economy tanked, they insisted that I teach with no additional pay or release from research obligations. It has been a 3 year deal with no change in salary, although the insurance premium has increased.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17467461004752581282010-07-12T15:26:26.208-05:002010-07-12T15:26:26.208-05:00@Anon 1:07,
No, we are not abused. I work as muc...@Anon 1:07,<br /><br />No, we are not abused. I work as much as I do because I want to.<br /><br />What is the point of taking off holidays anyway? Science doesn't stop for special days that honor Columbus or past presidents' birthdays. Besides, holidays are the best days to get work done because there is no one around to bother me.lersubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32251518089020271532010-07-12T15:01:08.142-05:002010-07-12T15:01:08.142-05:00As a post doc in the US I technically had a 40h qo...As a post doc in the US I technically had a 40h qork week, i.e. that was my salary and the hours calculated. In reality, coming in all days of the week and working with mouse experiments with set time points = 60h minimum....<br /><br />Coming in a 8.30 am and leaving 6.30 pm with little lunch break and then at least 4 hs Sat and 4 h Sun.... I was quite surprised my first month when I got in on a weekend and everyone in the lab was there (apart from the tech!). My PI was fair with taking leave, although it needed a good planning with end of experiments and being ready to start the next day when you came back.<br /><br />Maternity leave did not exist however... and sick leave.... well, if you were truly an invested post doc, surely you wouldn't be sick?!<br /><br />In general, anyonw who claimed "working only 40hs a week" would be told that you wouldn't be a successful postdoc/pichallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-58067651246566990982010-07-12T14:30:50.698-05:002010-07-12T14:30:50.698-05:00We have a newly formed postdoc affairs office that...We have a newly formed postdoc affairs office that is part of the grad school. It was mainly formed to regulate pay, hours, time as a postdoc (etc) because some labs were being unreasonable. The policies haven't really affected me because I'm in a good lab group.<br /><br />My contract says 40 hours, but there isn't a time card to fill out. The reality is as long as I come in early/stay late when needed for the experiment's sake I can take off early when I need to be somewhere else. On average I probably still put in over 40 hours, but since I know I can leave early when I need to I don't mind.<br /><br />My mentor is cool about this, but my office is away from the lab and I feel like the office staff keeps tabs on us. Of course, they're not here when I get in at 6:00am to know how long I am working.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28568824828716004362010-07-12T14:23:00.791-05:002010-07-12T14:23:00.791-05:00I left a few things out of my last comment:
1. I&...I left a few things out of my last comment:<br /><br />1. I'm in the US, <br /><br />and 2. I have no children and my significant other is also a postdoc at my institution.<br /><br />@Applied Physics Prof, if I were ever to become a professor, I would probably adopt 'rules' similar to yours. Although it is nice that we are treated as adults, some do take advantage of this situation (in my opinion). In graduate school I had strict 9-6 working hours, enforced by my advisor, which I found to be actually very beneficial in terms of interacting with my group members. As you mentioned, this interaction is much less significant when everyone has a different schedule.lersubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11432787874902198182010-07-12T13:07:32.539-05:002010-07-12T13:07:32.539-05:00The reputation for crazy working hours and minimal...The reputation for crazy working hours and minimal holiday is one thing that really puts me off the idea of working in the USA.<br /><br />Do US Professors abuse their postdocs........?????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78234886350547971762010-07-12T13:05:56.419-05:002010-07-12T13:05:56.419-05:00I know this doesn't seem to relate to me but I...I know this doesn't seem to relate to me but I treat my post-grad as a job since I'm paid quite well to do it. My current supervisor (there was a shake-up in the supervision team so...I'm just waiting for confirmation of the switch of a second supervisor, who's actually pretty busy, which suits me quite well) don't really care what hours I do as long as work gets done. I'm one of those OCD type workers where if there is a puzzle I have to solve it or I get ill from thinking about it (I'm not kidding here! I almost ended up in hospital once...all because I couldn't solve a puzzle!) As such, I have to be highly efficient and tries to finish whatever I'm working on as soon as possible. Tasks that require the least amount of time gets prioritised with the longest interspersed in between and when that long task gets completed, I wait 3-days to a week before I start another long task. This helps to keep me sane and at least approachable. As you may imagine I get through work at a really fast pace. I know this puts pressure on everyone else and to be honest I don't expect it back. <br /><br />So I guess I'm pretty lucky that out of 9 supervisors I've had in the past only one of them demanded that I work fixed hours whereas everyone else just left me be, occassionally reminding me that I haven't seen them for a while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78541908314215614102010-07-12T12:46:05.046-05:002010-07-12T12:46:05.046-05:00Particle physics in the US here.
I've been a ...Particle physics in the US here.<br /><br />I've been a "Postdoctoral Associate" and a "Postdoctoral Fellow" according university administrations. I've also met people who were "Research Associates" and "Temporary, Full-time Research Professors".<br /><br />In any case, yes the university recognizes that we exist, but they mostly seem to loath the fact of us. They don't quite know what we do or how to handle us.<br /><br />My bosses have expected <i>results</i> from me, not hours; and have been forgiving of the occasional time demands I have at home. Since graduating, I have made a point to not work more than ~50 hours a week except in emergencies and to take some time off after emergencies demand a long week or two. And I have received no complaints. I <i>have</i> received respect for my abilities and a bit of guidance.<br /><br />On the whole I enjoy being a post-doc, but am ready to move forward.EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23767742869568968772010-07-12T12:16:14.079-05:002010-07-12T12:16:14.079-05:00I am just beginning the process of looking for a p...I am just beginning the process of looking for a post doc and I'm wondering how I go about asking the hours I'm expected to put in. And, how honest is the advisor going to be? <br />I'm a mom and unwilling to give up my evenings with my daughter (with the obvious exception of an experiment that needs to be done). As such, I'm only willing to work so many hours/day (I'm a morning person and by getting in early I usually put in about 10 hrs/day currently as a grad student). <br />Also, in an interview should I bring up the fact that I'm a mom, or is that better left unsaid?almost donenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31882276106399676622010-07-12T11:24:50.726-05:002010-07-12T11:24:50.726-05:00I have a post-doc at a government lab and it is gr...I have a post-doc at a government lab and it is great. I work about 40-45 hours/week and, while we had an initial discussion of what my general hours would be, it's been totally flexible. It has made balancing my work and home life (with a toddler) really satisfying. I'm a big believer in progress as the metric over hours worked. But then, I seem to accomplish more in 8 hours than I do in 12, and publish more than most.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com