tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post3618258984088172753..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Walk on Eggshells, PleaseFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34779527002543904252013-06-12T10:09:03.152-05:002013-06-12T10:09:03.152-05:00For instance, women are perceived as sluts if they...For instance, women are perceived as sluts if they sexually harass or rape men and deserve harsher treatment because it's not appropriate for women to be sexually aggressive and that it emasculates men.<br /><br />And also, according to KBHC, women can't be attractive to others. They must be attractive to one man only. Women must be less assertive, less intelligent, less confident, less sociable, and less outgoing. Another anonymous poster said that women should be silent because men feel better that way and they like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37961818660723645612011-02-04T18:37:13.285-06:002011-02-04T18:37:13.285-06:00Oh and I never perceived FSP to be unhappy. Just b...Oh and I never perceived FSP to be unhappy. Just because some deal better by ignoring things and claiming they don't matter (and they do, drops add up, feathers get heavy) doesn't mean FSP's not happy! Some of us prefer to be aware and speak up. And I for one am glad FSP speaks for those who may not be able to.<br /><br />A happy feminist professorAlicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83073761104422703232011-02-04T18:34:17.129-06:002011-02-04T18:34:17.129-06:00I am so shocked and saddened to read people think ...I am so shocked and saddened to read people think FSP to be too sensitive. I know we live on the same planet! Perhaps if you don't drink the kool-aid life is too hard for some people? <br /><br />I thought the your mama joke was clearly and plainly offensive - no ambiguity. I mean it's a your mama joke that's how they work! <br /><br />And regartdless, the post was not that brilliant... Then again I'm not in those cliques so I did not think so anyway. <br /><br />Go on FSP, you are my rock of sanity in this strange, denialville everyone else seems to be living in...Alicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45398216707537190322011-01-27T21:43:15.230-06:002011-01-27T21:43:15.230-06:00I find that this video:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...I find that this video:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc&feature=player_embedded<br /><br />is one of the wisest things on these here internets for thinking about how to respond to a racist/sexist/homophobic piece of idiocy.Minoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00719509027451701396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40428191061338762162011-01-27T17:52:45.431-06:002011-01-27T17:52:45.431-06:00Oh, who said FSP had to rewrite the post? I must h...Oh, who said FSP had to rewrite the post? I must have missed that comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-20356889647749077852011-01-27T14:33:12.721-06:002011-01-27T14:33:12.721-06:00Does it have to be classified into a neat category...Does it have to be classified into a neat category? It was offensive; homophobic if intended as an insult, possibly sexist if 'mom' was picked for a particular reason. It doesn't matter. The example was chosen for being minor and offensive. You can like or dislike the example of course, but I don't get it why some commenters are so emphatic about expressing their opinion, as if that's that (except that's how some people are in the blogosphere and maybe IRL?): "I don't agree so FSP should rewrite the post". How is that not obnoxious?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-49772044267272628652011-01-27T13:31:52.345-06:002011-01-27T13:31:52.345-06:00Anon 12:58, the posting *appears* to be about &quo...Anon 12:58, the posting *appears* to be about "walking on eggshells", which *appears* to mean taking extreme, burdensome care to avoid *sexist* speech or actions. My point is only that the example isn't a good illustration of a sexist comment. (I also wonder what you make of what FSP says is "the extra rhetorical punch of mentioning lesbian mom instead of gay dad." That doesn't suggest that the remark was sexist?)<br /><br />If the idea is only that the remark was offensive, and not that it was sexist, then I'm not "hung up" at all. Of course it was offensive. As FSP notes, it was intended to be offensive.Male Humanistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-69529748045924188702011-01-27T12:58:48.908-06:002011-01-27T12:58:48.908-06:00The post never said the phrase was sexist, just of...The post never said the phrase was sexist, just offensive. Are you guys getting hung up on that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-6899595618298474952011-01-27T12:22:41.445-06:002011-01-27T12:22:41.445-06:00I agree completely with Ms. PhD. The joke was obvi...I agree completely with Ms. PhD. The joke was obviously homophobic, but not sexist. Are you thinking that it would have been okay if it had been an "and like your dad..." insult instead of "and like your mom..."? Or is homophobia intrinsically sexist?<br /><br />Like Ms. PhD., I think the general issue is really important and badly underestimated by men (esp. in academia), but this is not a good example.Male Humanistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85966076211094342852011-01-27T09:38:49.760-06:002011-01-27T09:38:49.760-06:00@Liz - I will say that I didn't show or tell t...@Liz - I will say that I didn't show or tell them I was offended. In fact, I haven't thought about it since. <br /><br />But, what bugged me in the situation, was the fact that they were treating me different because of my gender. Like all of a sudden since we were no longer on campus, I was fragile. I just insisted that I was fine and carried on. <br /><br />This was extra odd, because I'd gone to a conference with a few of them a couple of months earlier and I had to pretty much be the one who said "Okay, now let's do x, and we need to find a taxi for y" and pretty much run the show since they were all (unfortunately) either unwilling or incompetent (I lean towards the later, but hope it was the former).akajbhttp://guidetogradschoolsurvival.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23242265027510261602011-01-27T03:19:18.398-06:002011-01-27T03:19:18.398-06:00In this case, I am still peeved that my kid got a ...<i>In this case, I am still peeved that my kid got a disciplinary action for violating the sensibility of a group of people to whom I don't belong, whereby the enforcement of the disciplinary action also clearly indicated that the sensibilities of religious people are more important than my right to teach my child about appropriate language.</i><br /><br />Much sympathy to your kid... but I think it is important that we distinguish between instances of "offending sensibilities" and actually harming people (I think the example you gave is the former, but FSP's posts generally deal with the latter.) By yelling "what the hell?" your son didn't damage the employment prospects of the kids around him, or deny them medical care, or keep them out of politics like sexist speech can do (and does.)<br /><br />If he yelled "you're a bitch!" or some racial slur, etc. at another kid, would that cross the line for you? It would for me, because that's targeting some person or group for actual damage -- you aren't just offending their sensibilities but actually attacking them.<br /><br />A kid yelling curses somewhat-unwisely in your general vicinity is very different than having someone yell <i>at</i> or <i>about</i> you. Having to watch one's language in the first case is like walking on eggshells; in the latter case, it's more like chucking eggs at someone and then whining about all the shell fragments now surrounding you. The sexist asses complaining about all the "eggshells" they have to walk on conveniently leave out the fact that they're stepping on these eggshells because they are trying to <i>egg</i> someone.Bagelsannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13310552667282126452011-01-26T22:12:27.505-06:002011-01-26T22:12:27.505-06:00Since we are talking about walking on eggshells, I...Since we are talking about walking on eggshells, I can't help but share a related example. My son, who was ~9 at a time, was hit by a kid in the playground, and, annoyed, yelled "What the hell?!" A teacher standing close by heard him and sent him straight to the principal's because he had cursed (i.e. used the word "hell"). My family is not religious by any stretch of imagination and this was the first time I had heard that "hell" is a curse word -- I still don't consider it to be and I thought my son was unduly disciplined. But, apparently there are a lot of religious people here and they get offended by the use of the word. So should my son be instructed to think of "hell" as a swear word, same as "shit" or "ass", because certain other people are sensitive to it, even though it goes against all that we believe? In this case, I am still peeved that my kid got a disciplinary action for violating the sensibility of a group of people to whom I don't belong, whereby the enforcement of the disciplinary action also clearly indicated that the sensibilities of religious people are more important than my right to teach my child about appropriate language. So in this case, walking on eggshells versus freedom of speech?Grumpy Lurkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54420705301642513822011-01-26T20:36:43.203-06:002011-01-26T20:36:43.203-06:00Some of you are focusing too much on the "egg...Some of you are focusing too much on the "eggshells" thing. The main point is that there are things people say in passing and the question is: should they self-censor to the extent of not saying even these stupid things, even in a bar as part of an over-the-top uber-guy smackdown in a bar? And the answer is yes, they should. That is the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30459469461294585592011-01-26T20:34:05.741-06:002011-01-26T20:34:05.741-06:00I think akajb's 2nd anecdote is a much better ...I think akajb's 2nd anecdote is a much better example of "walking on eggshells" than the lesbian mother quote. A man who is trying to be polite and curtious asks a woman if she needs help carrying her bag and the woman feels offended because she is not being treated as an equal. I find that disheartening and it does make it challenging to know how to be a decent man, I would think.Liznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28016653639287455662011-01-26T19:46:15.930-06:002011-01-26T19:46:15.930-06:00"like the fact I can't have a private con..."like the fact I can't have a private conversation with my supervisor since I'm female and he's male, it's an unwritten rule (or maybe it's written, who knows) that door must always be open."<br /><br />You need to insist that if your boss isn't going to close the door, he 1) leave it open with everyone so it's equal or 2) he takes you to get coffee for your meetings so you can have some privacy from your labmates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79166504104366156652011-01-26T17:16:00.608-06:002011-01-26T17:16:00.608-06:00So far, in grad school, I have come across a few i...So far, in grad school, I have come across a few instances that left me seething. <br /><br />1) I was chatting with fellow (male) grad student at the time (we started the same year) and was asked what I was there and shouldn't I be looking for a husband? I wasn't very friendly to him after this...<br /><br />2) Recently, on a trip to a conference, I was one for about 10 from my department (and only female). People were constantly making sure "I was okay" and "can I carry that" etc. I'm probably in better shape then every single one of them. It drove me nuts. I'd much rather be treated as "one of the guys." (I'm in CS - very very male dominated). <br /><br />I've also been in the situation where I was at a friends place for a party, and happened to be in the kitchen with the two other females present. One guy was like, "oh, I have the best joke but I shouldn't say it." So, of course, everyone convinced him to say it and it was along the lines of "the woman are in the kitchen like they're suppose to be." In this case, this is more annoying in that he could've saved himself from looking like a sexist pig by just not mentioning what came to mind. <br /><br />I actually find some of the more offensive (but not blatant) issues are things like the fact I can't have a private conversation with my supervisor since I'm female and he's male, it's an unwritten rule (or maybe it's written, who knows) that door must always be open. This means that others can (and have) listened in. Not a great way to feel confident and like you can discuss anything. <br /><br />I wish guys (and girls) didn't have to walk on eggshells. But, considering how many people can't seem to sensor themselves and do a reality check of their environment, I think some people really need to.<br /><br />(Sorry this seems to ramble...)akajbhttp://guidetogradschoolsurvival.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64788152815792397302011-01-26T17:04:51.474-06:002011-01-26T17:04:51.474-06:00I don't get it. And here I thought I was prett...I don't get it. And here I thought I was pretty (over)sensitive to these kind of things.Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33889793523821985542011-01-26T17:02:11.811-06:002011-01-26T17:02:11.811-06:00Try clicking on the link, YFS. I found the post to...Try clicking on the link, YFS. I found the post to be quite clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-42870094953557113502011-01-26T16:58:40.632-06:002011-01-26T16:58:40.632-06:00Thank you. I was having a hard time putting my fin...Thank you. I was having a hard time putting my finger on what was wrong with that post, but you nailed it. <br /><br />As a woman who someday dreams of being a professor, you've been a bit of an inspiration to me; and, I'm getting a much better idea of at least a little of what I'll be up against, should I ever actually manage to land a job in academia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28107854209027530552011-01-26T16:23:59.225-06:002011-01-26T16:23:59.225-06:00What Ms PhD. Walking on eggshells around importan...What Ms PhD. Walking on eggshells around important topics is different from refraining from simple insults. It is of course possible for even a well-meaning person to insult people unintentionally during a dialogue on an important topic, and I'm not saying that good intentions should be a free pass there. However, that is still different from the person who is just pissed and says something offensive with intent to offend.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21101423896757547362011-01-26T15:07:25.760-06:002011-01-26T15:07:25.760-06:00Hmm. I had trouble following this post, maybe beca...Hmm. I had trouble following this post, maybe because I haven't read the TMS reference you cited. I agree with the first anon who said this is not a good example of "walking on eggshells". The rest seemed like disorganized ranting. Not your best. <br /><br />Having said that, I think these kinds of jokes are rooted in the history of comedy. Comedy is traditionally male-dominated and extremely sexist: "your mama" jokes are still considered a classic form. Homophobia is still common and offensive, but I don't think we should mix it up with the kind of sexism that ALL women, regardless of sexual orientation, deal with daily in this country - especially in scientific careers. <br /><br />My advice: revise and resubmit. I think the original hypothesis re: walking on eggshells is worthy of further investigation.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81330370570069174922011-01-26T14:57:22.511-06:002011-01-26T14:57:22.511-06:00First off, anonymous people, when you post as '...First off, anonymous people, when you post as 'anonymous' my first reaction is to assume you're a troll, especially in discussions such as this.<br /><br />Style is cramped because the world's style is people saying whatever they want about women and that's ok, because that's the style. Well, the style is changing, and those people aren't being funny or cute, they're saying dumbass shit. <br /><br />So, it's not walking on eggshells-- it's being decent and not using someone's gender/sexuality as an insult. Too bad if that's ingrained in our culture. So I have to stop making "your mom" jokes? I don't think my life is ruined. <br /><br />FSP-- rock on, lady. Throw down those eggshells like a gauntlet.a. b.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17104737221730849084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-42416915245197641722011-01-26T13:24:35.037-06:002011-01-26T13:24:35.037-06:00Ironically, some of the most sexist statements/att...Ironically, some of the most sexist statements/attitudes we (my wife and I) have encountered personally has come from women. Two instances come to mind. First, my wife was admonished in public by an older woman for "letting me" feed our infant son at a party, insinuating that it was her job. Needless to say it left her seething. Second, I have received back-handed complements from the teachers at our son's daycare for taking care of our son when my wife is away for a few days on business; the insinuation is that the default is incompetence and said son seems to be doing rather well with me. I was mildly annoyed.<br /><br />The point is that it will take a generation to get rid of sexism - provided we make sure that the kids now are not brainwashed into believing stereotypes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33288459868424241672011-01-26T11:43:15.713-06:002011-01-26T11:43:15.713-06:00Thanks for writing this, FSP. I can't help but...Thanks for writing this, FSP. I can't help but see some correlations with this conversation and the one that has erupted (positively, happily) after Science Online 2011 that you can find here: http://professorkateclancy.blogspot.com/2011/01/women-scienceblogging-revolution.html (It's a link round-up of a number of posts that have been written in just the last few days on sexism in the science blogosphere.)<br /><br />Some great points have already been made in the comment thread. The only thing I want to add is that I don't think we should underestimate how damaging overhearing sexist comments can be. They contribute to a world where women feel THEY are walking on eggshells all the time: dress pretty but not too pretty, be confident but not bitchy, etc. When I overhear sexist remarks I feel sick, and I imagine I'm not the only one.<br /><br />So it's damaging in the moment, but it's damaging beyond the sphere of people upon whom you're inflicting your remarks.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91444708680314348842011-01-26T11:28:41.346-06:002011-01-26T11:28:41.346-06:00Walk on eggshells? How about think about what you ...Walk on eggshells? How about think about what you are saying? <br /><br />The problem is this attitude some have of "I don't want to examine my actions because surely I am right and everyone else is wrong"<br /><br />Saying something others find offensive is not the worst thing in the world. Not that I am encouraging it, but it gives you an opportunity to think about how what you say is interpreted by other people. Particularly people who may have a different perspective than you. If after actual reflection (and not just knee-jerk denial) you conclude that what you said wasn't that bad, then fine. People can disagree about these things. If what you said maybe was offensive, apologize if needed, then think about why if may have been offensive and try to minimize such things in the future. It's not that hard.<br /><br />It just bothers me when people think they are immune to saying offensive things because they are a "nice person". I know plenty of nice people who have said offensive things (including myself). <br /><br />(That wasn't at anyone in particular, just a generalized rant)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com