tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post4082242917591173723..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Paying for ItFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15209026947606749822010-11-07T16:14:22.808-06:002010-11-07T16:14:22.808-06:00I'm a 5th year grad student looking ahead to b...I'm a 5th year grad student looking ahead to both a PostDoc and to starting a family in the next year or two. These comments scare the sh#$ out of me. The idea that "postdocs shouldn't get babies" is awful, as is the shady way many of the posters were treated with regard to stipends.nassim harameinhttp://www.humanrestore.com/2009/12/nassim-haramein-the-new-einstein/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54768151081802081842009-07-27T09:40:29.900-05:002009-07-27T09:40:29.900-05:00This week's Time magazine features an article ...This week's Time magazine features an article about the alarming rate of infant mortality in the U.S. compared to other industrialized countries. A major contributing factor seems to be the increase in pre-term birth over the past 20 years. And nowhere in that article is maternity leave (or the lack there-of) mentioned...Aislingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-20672806741146021682009-07-26T08:04:02.183-05:002009-07-26T08:04:02.183-05:00A lot of the grad students in my department are ol...A lot of the grad students in my department are older re-entry students. Some even have kids in college. It is quite possible to have children while a grad student, and it may be the best time, both biologically and socially.<br /><br />People who think you shouldn't have kids will think that no matter when you have them.<br /><br />Given that most scientists now are children of scientists or engineers, where do you think the next generation of scientists will come from if scientists fail to reproduce?Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26573014729533644772009-07-25T21:50:22.339-05:002009-07-25T21:50:22.339-05:00I'm feeling defensive from reading the other c...<i>I'm feeling defensive from reading the other comments that I'm some sort of irresponsible person or bad scientist for having a child in grad school. Stop judging!</i><br /><br />well if your personal circumstances were such that you had the money and time to have a baby while still a grad student then more power to you, and congratulations. But most people in that situation have neither. <br /><br />heck when I was a grad student I didn't even have the money or time to have a dog!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27081578991550237362009-07-24T15:07:34.273-05:002009-07-24T15:07:34.273-05:00I have to say that I'm glad I'm not living...I have to say that I'm glad I'm not living in the US, but in a country where paid parental leave is covered by the law regardless of who your employer is or where the money for your salary comes from. The paid parental leave covers at least a year per child for each parent, so at least two years in total per child. Part of the time can be transfered between the parents, if one wants to stay home longer (usually the one with the lowest salary). It's mainly paided by the state ("parent money"), although better employers compete with good conditions. Luckily my faculty is one of them, and adds 3 months extra employment as "catch up time after parental leave" to all PhD students who has been on parental leave.<br /><br />I think that if you have employees in "child bearing age" (about 20-40) then you have to be realistic and calculate that some or most of them will have babies. That's the way life works, and trying to ignore it is not going to help your budget or your research plans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35985479088229656212009-07-23T16:12:20.187-05:002009-07-23T16:12:20.187-05:00My data point:
I had a baby while in a Ph.D. progr...My data point:<br />I had a baby while in a Ph.D. program and had "paid" maternity leave as I was supported by a national scholarship. Because of the nature of the scholarship (focused on, but not exclusively, women in science) I did include the news of the birth of my daughter in the final progress report.<br /><br />I'm feeling defensive from reading the other comments that I'm some sort of irresponsible person or bad scientist for having a child in grad school. Stop judging!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91597230281665465022009-07-23T15:18:48.600-05:002009-07-23T15:18:48.600-05:00"What I gather from all these comments is tha..."What I gather from all these comments is that it doesn't matter who pays for it. The problem is that women take leave and men don't. So a mandatory 2 months for father and mother might be the key. They can take it together or sequential. Then it won't be about discriminating women, but married people in general."<br /><br />Which might counterbalance the fact that married people so often receive preferential treatment over singles (in my experience).<br /><br />Then again, I've recently come off a semester where 1/4 of our department took paternity leave at the same time leaving the rest of us to cover for them at little-to-no extra pay (no, that's not their fault per se but given that the fellow I had to cover for consistently gets preferential treatment over me, I'm a little bitter at him anyway). So, effectively, *I* paid for his paternity leave - with my time and my health.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48552171427012246762009-07-23T13:21:48.551-05:002009-07-23T13:21:48.551-05:00@new anonymous- you make a good point. Just for ac...@new anonymous- you make a good point. Just for accuracy: in most cases, the small business does NOT pay for a leave. The small business paid into a government mandated insurance program that then pays for the leave.<br /><br />I think the cutoff for the mandate is at 50 employees, but I'm not sure.<br /><br />In my case- I work at a business of about 80 employees- my pay while out on leave is covered by these insurance programs, not my company. My company still pays my benefits (like health insurance), though. My company is using some of the money they would be paying me during my leave to pay a contractor to cover some of my work. <br /><br />It seems to me that universities could do something similar to cover postdocs and grad students. Of course, if you make it the norm to bring in temporary help to keep a project going while the postdoc or grad student is out on leave, then you have to solve the problem of ensuring the trainee still gets adequate training. I think you could make a case that planning for someone else to continue your project for a few months is actually valuable management training, but since we don't generally worry about management training for our grad students and postdocs, perhaps this isn't a useful case to make.Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-39960339577825796412009-07-23T12:43:12.855-05:002009-07-23T12:43:12.855-05:00[I'm a new anonymous, not already posted on th...[I'm a new anonymous, not already posted on this thread.]<br /><br />This discussion has gotten really off track. I'd like to bring it back to the point being made by FSP at the beginning, which is (IMHO) extremely important. <br /><br />As lab PIs, we run a small business, but as university professors, we are part of a large business. Small businesses have exceptions to many of these mandatory rules (like mandatory leave) because they don't have the flexibility to handle such drastic changes. (Imagine the following situation: you are running a lab on a single R01 that pays for one student (not unreasonable). That student takes 6 months leave to take care of child, sick-parent, whatever (again, not unreasonable). Anyone want to guess the likelihood that R01 gets renewed with 6 months work missing?) A small business (think <10 people) doesn't have the flexibility to pay for someone to spend months not working.<br /><br />What we really need is for all labs to pay in to a centralized pool, so that the university can cover these situations. That way each lab pays a small amount (well within budget), and students can take that necessary leave. Isn't that the kind of thing indirect costs is supposed to cover?<br /><br />[For the record, I have no idea what my university does and I'm afraid to ask. Last time I started down a road like this, I was told I owed a technician over $5k that I didn't expect, hadn't planned for, and that my chair and HR all said was unreasonable. But that the university said was not worth fighting legally.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27664631643654643622009-07-23T12:15:24.518-05:002009-07-23T12:15:24.518-05:00this is all quite silly. Most women in science do ...this is all quite silly. Most women in science do have children, and somehow they seem to manage to also have a working brain (see FSP). I have only one kid, and I gather FSP does too, but many braver women have even two, three or (gasp!) more. The current Chancellor of UCSD has 5 kids total (3 biological). <br />True, some of us (perhaps most of us) have had challenges and may harbor some bitterness on how things were handled.<br />My point being, it is going to happen (women having kids). It seems that most people manage to be productive nevertheless, especially if one looks at the long run. <br />So isn't it better to facilitate somehow the process, or at least to not make women's lives miserable?! We cannot afford to waste women's talent just because one has a child, although I understand that Anon 2:15 would prefer to have less competition in his pursuits.<br />There's no good time to have a child. Regardless of when it happens, it is going to be a major challenge and it will probably appear as a glitch on one's career. Universities need to have policies ahead of time to accommodate women at all stage of their career.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35664442997564651362009-07-23T11:16:24.250-05:002009-07-23T11:16:24.250-05:00Ignoring all of the incredibly ignorant comments a...Ignoring all of the incredibly ignorant comments about women and serious careers and responsibility and timing... I'll just provide my data point for who paid.<br /><br />I'm a woman, a PhD student, and I have a 10-month-old son. My university (in the US) guarantees 3 months of maternity leave (but not paternity) for grad students. The university funds 50% of this leave from a general fund, so women get 50% of their stipend and continued health insurance. Advisors are "strongly encouraged" to kick in the other 50%, to bring the stipend back up to normal levels. Some advisors use grant money, some use overhead, depending on circumstance. Some expect to see a modicum of work during this time, but most just look the other way.<br /><br />In my particular case, my advisor kicked in the other half, agreed (in writing) that I wouldn't need to do any work during my maternity leave, then cut off all funding for me when I returned from my leave. Her reasons: I didn't get enough work done during my leave, and clearly I'm not serious about my career if I chose to have a baby.<br /><br />Ultimately, I think that "who pays" is a tiny issue here. The real problem is dealing with attitudes in academia that don't acknowledge the overlap of child-bearing years and grad school, and that ignore the reality that people are going to continue to procreate, and you shouldn't <b>force</b> women to end their academic careers because of it. If we start by addressing the attitudes, policies providing for funding will naturally follow.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15614845410446113639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80320978639814609382009-07-23T10:08:15.287-05:002009-07-23T10:08:15.287-05:00What I gather from all these comments is that it d...What I gather from all these comments is that it doesn't matter who pays for it. The problem is that women take leave and men don't. So a mandatory 2 months for father and mother might be the key. They can take it together or sequential. Then it won't be about discriminating women, but married people in general.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3771759148220602292009-07-23T09:57:40.670-05:002009-07-23T09:57:40.670-05:00NIH policy for grad students and post-docs support...NIH policy for grad students and post-docs supported by institutional or individual NRSA fellowships is that up to 8 weeks of parental leave while supported by the stipend is allowed, provided that the term of supported leave is consistent with that afforded to other non-NRSA trainees at the institution. Trainees supported by NIH research project or center grants are also allowed paid parental leave chargeable as direct costs to those grants, again provided that the term of supported leave is consistent with that afforded to other trainees at the institution.Comrade PhysioProfhttp://physioprof.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37192342997520709142009-07-23T08:15:07.119-05:002009-07-23T08:15:07.119-05:00Anon 2:15, I am shocked that you don't have th...Anon 2:15, I am shocked that you don't have the scientific objectivity to realize that as a man, you have a much, much broader choice of when to "get" a child. <br /><br />There are very simple and real time constraints on those who actually need to bear said child, and those overlap with the grad-school and postdoc stages of one's career. <br /><br />I think FSP might have been trying to discuss what to do about that overlap, rather than simply pretend it doesn't really exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30497793520085045352009-07-22T20:41:47.611-05:002009-07-22T20:41:47.611-05:00anyonom 6.18
Since the average age of getting a N...anyonom 6.18<br /><br />Since the average age of getting a NIH grant is the US is above 40 I guess then it means that you think all female scientist should avoid children and all male ones should find a younger wife.<br /><br />That's hardly what anyone wants?! Or maybe that is what everyone who wants women to choose between science and family wants.<br /><br />I think paternal leave should be half and half at least - as in paid by the institute for the most part as looking at post docs as employees and faculty and not rely on grant funding. It is quite steep to ask of a PI to pay for post doc/grad student paternal leave simply because this will lead to less females getting hired (they obviously have to be gone for at least a few days after giving birth). Everyone wants as much papers for their buck.<br /><br />Since "we" want children and fathers being at home, as well as women working, I would think that the institution being responsible for a part of the paternal leave would be the "fair" thing to do. Of course, this is hard toargue since everyone is happy now (apart from the grad studnet and post docs) that cheap labour adapts to the situation...<br /><br />As of time and paid leave, I'm not sure. Where I come from, 13 months is paid for by the security system. That's for both mom and dad combined, as in linked to the child. Scientist don't normally take that since they want to do science... in the US I would think 8 weeks at least,unpaid would be the minimus resonable if you want involved parents...<br /><br />This is not even contemplating the sick child leave...challhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10421219663804628119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81170520839883481732009-07-22T18:18:32.059-05:002009-07-22T18:18:32.059-05:00I think that grad students and postdocs should hav...I think that grad students and postdocs should have unpaid maternity leave. Why? because they are technically not long-term employees, they are supposed to be 'trainees'. They are being paid from soft money (PI's grant). Grants are meant to fund research, not personal life choices. (getting pregnant and having kids is, in the majority of situations for adults, a personal CHOICE)<br /><br />This is why I don't think that grad school and postdoc is a good time to be starting a family. it seems irresponsible to start a family when you don't even have a REAL JOB YET.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70616189082301771622009-07-22T18:11:27.196-05:002009-07-22T18:11:27.196-05:00Anonymous at 2:15- I appreciate your willingness t...Anonymous at 2:15- I appreciate your willingness to come back and defend your opinions.<br /><br />I recognize that academia and industry have different constraints. I do think, though, that those of you in academia sometimes underestimate the pressures on people in industry. There are consequences when we miss our goals, too, and sometimes those consequences are pretty dire. That is a subject of a different discussion, though.<br /><br />Maternity leave in the States is usually more like 3 months than a year. In some states, women are only guaranteed 6 weeks. I live in CA, which probably has the most protective laws in this area, and my job is only guaranteed for a 4 month leave, unless there are medical complications that leave me actually disabled for longer. My company is not in fact required to pay ANYTHING to me during my leave. All of my pay during maternity leave comes either from disability insurance or family leave insurance, both of which my company and I had to pay into. My income during my leave will be significantly less than my usual income.<br /><br />In cases where a postdoc is considered an employee, I would expect that the same arrangement applies. For grad students and postdocs who are treated as students by their institutions, the situation is a lot less clear. I think that is the situation FSP wanted to discuss, and I'm sorry the discussion has gotten so sidetracked.<br /><br />The problem with your earlier statement and in fact your follow up response is that you assume the burden for handling the deficiencies of the current system should all fall on the woman who wants to have a child. That is an unfair assumption. The woman has a right to have a child, and to expect that her employer will have systems in place to make this possible. If those systems are inadequate, then it is as much your responsibility as hers to try to fix them and to try to find arrangements that will work out. Just throwing up your hands and saying women shouldn't have babies during their postdocs is unhelpful, to say the least.<br /><br />I also do not think either the research or the child has to suffer. I suppose that if you were the sort of person who spent all of your waking hours in the lab before having a baby, that would have to change. However, I completely reject the idea that you have to be that sort of person to be a good scientist. Most scientists have other interests and activities outside the lab. If I look at my own life, here are the things that have "suffered" from my decision to have a child: the cleanliness of my house, some local pubs that no longer see much of me and my husband, my musical abilities, and my knowledge of current TV.Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23502970249075131922009-07-22T18:03:01.510-05:002009-07-22T18:03:01.510-05:00"My question is: can you really be as product..."My question is: can you really be as producttve working from home (just like working at work)? If that is true, then most people can just work from home 90% of the time (save the commute hours). Just come to campus for meetings, right?"<br /><br />This is, in fact, a standard mode of operation for graduate students and postdocs in the computational sciences and math. People come in to work for interaction with others (formal and informal) or when the distractions at home are worse than the distractions at work.<br /><br />I've found it useful to reduce the number of days a week I come into the office, and spend the other days working from home. I get more done that way than I would if I were always in the office or always at home.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91418529999658887372009-07-22T16:51:38.793-05:002009-07-22T16:51:38.793-05:00If the average scientist took three months off nob...If the average scientist took three months off nobody would know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11919493353010549612009-07-22T16:32:44.691-05:002009-07-22T16:32:44.691-05:00I am anonymous at 2:15: I am 45 and have a 3 year ...I am anonymous at 2:15: I am 45 and have a 3 year old jumping-up-and-down-running-around-screaming boy. I know what it's like to have a child who had regular projectile vomiting, etc. I do know from personal experience that it is extremely hard to combine a research career with having a kid (and enjoying it rather than dumping it into childcare). My wife was completely out of action for a year at least (morning sickness, C-section, lack of sleep). Despite the fact that it probably true that people should have a right to have kids, don't have them when you are a postdoc, for the simple fact that something has got to give: either your work or the well-being of your child. Life is hard. From a PI's perspective: it is very hard to a get grant in the UK (and I'm sure in the States), it only runs for 3-3.5 years with a possible 0.5-year extension in case of personnel problems. If somebody leaves for maternity for, say, a year, the PI is screwed with possible implications for future grant funding. An academic PI is not a private company that can afford to have a maternity leave policy. Thus, you cannot apply the rules that apply to companies to PIs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55456555652845750212009-07-22T15:45:40.441-05:002009-07-22T15:45:40.441-05:00The cost of raising a child cost at least 250k +/-...The cost of raising a child cost at least 250k +/- 50k. <br /><br />-"That is a very close-minded opinion. The success of some grad students and postdoc's careers does not depend on them not having a family. Not everyone working at a research university has the same aspirations. Also, experiments can not be completed at home, but working on a manuscript or dissertation can be done from home."<br /><br />My question is: can you really be as producttve working from home (just like working at work)? If that is true, then most people can just work from home 90% of the time (save the commute hours). Just come to campus for meetings, right?<br /><br />Also, if you are planning to get married or think about having kids, when do you tell your PI? Do you even need to tell them, or just inform them when it is going to happen (non-negotiable)? Wouldn't some PIs be MAD? Do they have reasons to be mad??grad studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35364653344461447022009-07-22T15:38:27.374-05:002009-07-22T15:38:27.374-05:00How about grad. students getting married (or havin...How about grad. students getting married (or having kids)? Good idea or bad? <br /><br />From the grad. students' perspective?<br /><br />From the PI's perspective?<br /><br />What about vacation time? 0-30 days (how many days should they get? What would be fair or unfair)Jerrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63765564476668135952009-07-22T15:12:59.522-05:002009-07-22T15:12:59.522-05:00Point 1: People need to have babies in order to c...Point 1: People need to have babies in order to continue our species.<br /><br />Point 2: Someone has to take care of these babies, or they will die and our species will not continue.<br /><br />Point 3: Childcare can be shared among mothers and fathers, but biology has mandated there is an extra biological load on mothers.<br /><br />Point 4: The best biological time for women to have babies is under the age of 35.<br /><br />Point 5: We don't want to mandate that some people are baby-makers and other people are scientists, do we?<br /><br />Point 6: It's counterproductive to give excellent workers the boot if they have to take some short-term leave.<br /><br />Conclusion: At the very least, we must allow short-term leave. And we must not say things like "they decided to have a family so they don't care about their career." And if we really believe in points 1-6, we should provide paid leave and affordable child care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76844708888834606082009-07-22T14:49:54.714-05:002009-07-22T14:49:54.714-05:00@anonymous 1:47- I didn't have a C-section, so...@anonymous 1:47- I didn't have a C-section, so was much more mobile. And I have a blackberry, so I checked email from my sofa. Most of the emails that needed replies didn't require much thought- just me pointing the person to the appropriate other person who could answer in my absence. Like I said, I'm mostly a manager now. <br /><br />I, too, spent the first month or so in a severely sleep deprived state. I can't imagine what kind of interesting "insights" I would have had if I had tried to do any work requiring serious thought. <br /><br />I recovered the ability to think coherently at about 6 weeks postpartum, when my daughter's night time sleep got a bit better and she started taking better naps. Even then, though, there was no way I was doing any serious work while I was home with her. If she was awake, she demanded my attention. If she was asleep, I was usually trying to sleep, too. Or eat. <br /><br />I know that I had a relatively high needs baby, though. I was curious if the people advocating the use of parental leaves as time to plan and write had children and had actually done this or if they were just postulating about what a person could do, if that person were to live in a world where newborns actually sleep.Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10903229689785538272009-07-22T14:24:18.053-05:002009-07-22T14:24:18.053-05:00I'm 27 and still have 5 years left on my PhD. ...I'm 27 and still have 5 years left on my PhD. Let's assume there'll be another 5-6 year period of (god willing) tenure track position if all goes perfectly? I'm suppose to wait till I'm 37? I'm supposed to do this during the quest for tenure? I don't think so. So sometime before my dissertation or if I end up with a postdoc is my only shot, thanks. People can pontificate about who and when people should or shouldn't have babies don't have a goddamned clue. You know what? Taking a week off with the flu and resulting pneumonia means you, Anon, don't care about YOUR research. If your parents or siblings died and YOU had to take care of the arrangements and you did, well, I guess science isn't THAT important, is it? Gosh, I bet you'd even do chemo for some sort of dangerous cancer you might get!<br /><br />We all know what long term importance things have, and if we're vaguely sane or stable, we can determine that there are situations, some controllable and some not, that can develop that for a short period of time supersede others. Period.lost academicnoreply@blogger.com