tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post5533820628770499919..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Start Seeing Micro-inequitiesFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53688257445822011042011-01-24T07:20:02.232-06:002011-01-24T07:20:02.232-06:00"A micro-inequity can be very micro."
t..."A micro-inequity can be very micro."<br /><br />then start calling them nano...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81411956842496613672010-05-24T18:16:19.370-05:002010-05-24T18:16:19.370-05:00I came here this morning from another blog link, a...I came here this morning from another blog link, and although this is an old post I felt compelled to come back and comment.<br /><br />First, micro-inequities as you define them are completely determinate on your perception of the event. The alleged perpetrator may or may not interpret the same event in the same way. Your biases color the results of your "study." I can easily imagine a scenario in which a person looking for these "micro" events could find them at every turn. <br /><br />Stepping back for a second, I agree that someone who calls a black person the "n-word" because he was brought up that way and doesn't perceive it to be racist is still committing a major offense. But cultural norms have come to a point where reasonable people would agree to this. Cultural norms have not shifted to the degree where reasonable people can agree that these "micro" incidents you describe are indeed sexist/racist. There cannot be a single standard of conduct if everyone perceives a "micro" event in a subtly different way.<br /><br />Second, I find your argument scientifically lacking. You say that you agree each individual incident can be "interpreted in other (non-sexist) ways," but taken in the aggregate they become "not so micro".<br /><br />If in the aggregate I have 1000 data points that can be described with either a "yes" or a "no" to signify the presence (or lack thereof) of an actual incident. If you can describe each incident as either "yes" or "no" then you have 1000 meaningless data points. If you can definitely categorize 100 of them as "yes", do you then have something? What about 250? 500? <br /><br />Reasonable people can agree that there are several possible interpretations of the "I-can't-believe-you're-a-professor incident" that you describe in a previous post. Which leads me to wonder what other standards of conduct you believe should become cultural norms.<br /><br />For example, growing up I worked in a bar to make extra money for college. I was forced to ask younger women (and men) for their ID to prove that they were 21. I learned quickly that asking older women (mid-30s to early 40s) for their ID made them, at times, literally squeal with delight and, more importantly, more prone to tip higher. A micro-inequity? <br /><br />In a situation now where I'm forced to guess a woman's age I always deliberately choose a number 5-7 years younger than my actual guess would be if I was trying to be accurate. What about this? <br /><br />I think you can see where I'm going - I have learned in subtle ways to treat women differently than men. But whereas you define different as negative, I was raised or conditioned to see it as a positive. Something has to give.<br /><br />As a final point I'll make a slippery slope argument. I'm left-handed. Were I to spend any time dwelling on it, I could come up with perhaps thousands of micro-inequities throughout my adult life where I have been treated in a different way because of that characteristic (indeed, books have been written about it). Where does your argument logically end?<br /><br />I would argue that it ends somewhere close to where cultural norms are now. The farther we go down your path the closer we come to Harrison Bergeron.Thomas Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10993231279738991773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57739412030211916072010-01-29T09:47:46.629-06:002010-01-29T09:47:46.629-06:00It really gets me down how many intelligent, ratio...It really gets me down how many intelligent, rational people out there fail to see this. Also the fact that sexism alone seems notoriously hard for people to see - I've never seen someone who commented on an ambiguously racist comment or gesture labelled as being over-sensitive. Speaking out against racism draws respect, from my social circles. Speaking out against sexism draws suspicion, teasing, and eye-rolling exasperation. Which makes it ten times harder to endure a situation you feel might be one of these "micro-inequities", even though you have no way of knowing if it really is one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78920426658623008072009-09-13T22:14:03.023-05:002009-09-13T22:14:03.023-05:00@ JCup: You do know that it is everyone's own ...@ JCup: You do know that it is everyone's own responsibility to work on their social skills, right? And that it's not ok to be rude because you're an engineer, right? You're basically saying that anyone with better social skills than yours that get offended by your lack of them should adjust their expectations. Sorry, but that's not how social skills and expectations work.<br /><br />@ Anonymous 9/10/2009 10:51:00 AM:<br />You obviously have no idea what a professor even does for a living. FSP has no boss, project leader, of anything of the sort giving her instructions. She calls the shots, she makes the strategy, she does the hiring, she identifies the opportunities, she decides who and what is good enough. She is the one giving instructions. You are right in that it is important to value experience, though. FSP's is likely significant.Globalistgirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-43491156159241594292009-09-12T21:01:16.205-05:002009-09-12T21:01:16.205-05:00@Anonymous,
From the way you worded your post, th...@Anonymous,<br /><br />From the way you worded your post, this sounded more like a Doctor versus Nurse issue and had nothing to do with male versus female.<br /><br />Did they allow male nurses to be referred to as "Dr. last name" instead of by first name?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05513910453292285558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64906931778367378232009-09-12T11:29:08.971-05:002009-09-12T11:29:08.971-05:00I also work in a research hospital; I am a nurse w...I also work in a research hospital; I am a nurse who specializes in research studies.<br /><br />I got tired of (mostly male) MDs who insisted on being called Dr. Lastname (to the point of correcting me if I dare use a first name) but insisted on calling me (and all the other, mostly female nurses) Firstname (even if corrected to Ms Lastname). I finally decided they could all have the first name of "Doc" and that's all they get from me.<br /><br />It doesn't help that they often have no idea what's going on with their own protocols, and they rely on me to tell them what to do at patient visits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22254536303744568142009-09-10T23:13:21.922-05:002009-09-10T23:13:21.922-05:00A related discussion came up over on the Geek Femi...A related discussion came up over on the Geek Feminism wiki, and Mary blogged about it: http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/19/why-we-document/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44230389403531780102009-09-10T21:07:04.653-05:002009-09-10T21:07:04.653-05:00"These used to be called "instructions&q..."These used to be called "instructions" but they've somehow become sexist."<br /><br />This is so offensive it made me laugh out loud. But I have to agree to some extent with the poster, though I would have agreed more with FSP in my previous career, which seems like it was much worse than science in these regards. But my perceptions may have changed as well. If anything, my current situation is potentially worse, and if I stop and think about it, I have had some issues, even a serious one only about two months ago.<br /><br />One thing that helped (and I admit all the arguing about it with men did feel like they were minimizing my concerns at the time and did not help) was observing over time that men did experience many insults and indignities, but they noticed them less often and seemed to forget them more easily. I think many of the male posters here are referring to their awareness of this ability.<br /><br />It could be mainly that I've gotten older and more confident and don't want to waste time on small issues like this, or that I've learned by prevailing in earlier situations where my confidence was more affected. But for whatever reason, this is no longer an issue for me.<br /><br />It is hard for me to imagine someone actually doubting their worth and potential as a scientist in 2009 as a result of some of these situations, like someone being surprised that you're a woman scientist. It isn't just that things are less sexist now, I seem to have more or less accepted the situation because I've realized that there is still plenty of room for me to maneuver in the world. <br /><br />Another comment about it being 2009 - if someone expects you to make the coffee and it's clearly because you're a women, you don't need to do it, nothing bad will happen to you if you don't, in fact it's probably better for you if you don't, and you shouldn't be complaining about it here. That is soooo 1970's:). You do not have time in your fabulous life to even get mad at something so clearly stupid.Isabelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79466505523435978302009-09-10T17:00:05.251-05:002009-09-10T17:00:05.251-05:00Michael C, that's just what I was thinking onl...Michael C, that's just what I was thinking only more coherent. That's what makes micro-inequities so frustrating - you can never be sure with the little things whether you're being oversensitive (person X is having a bad day) or whether it's actual prejudice (person X is sexist). So you can either think the best of everyone and risk perpetuating prejudice by not calling it out, or you can not react but spend your life wondering if it's 'just you', or you can risk being the angry over-reacting activist. Hobson's choice.Charlottehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05992098593585263566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11995360188545333342009-09-10T10:51:19.931-05:002009-09-10T10:51:19.931-05:00You may want to concentrate more on your work and ...You may want to concentrate more on your work and less on PERCEIVED slights and inequalities. I'm not doubting that you have to put up with these things day-to-day, what I do doubt is whether or not your perception is already skewed based on past experiences. If so, you may want to be less eager to jump on a comment, look, tone or whatever and take it for what it probably is -- a non-issue and unintentional. <br /><br />I'm assuming the "privileged" people you refer to are all men who are either your boss or a project leader of some sort. Maybe you should listen to what they have to say (the vast majority are more experienced than you I have to assume) and follow accordingly. You don't know that he doesn't speak to white males in the same tone.<br /><br />I find these blogs are getting more and more PC; we're now down to "Micro-inequities". These used to be called "instructions" but they've somehow become sexist. Great, just what we need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-56913781279545298262009-09-09T15:16:18.305-05:002009-09-09T15:16:18.305-05:00@Drew,
You just posted a Macro-inequity.@Drew,<br /><br />You just posted a Macro-inequity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05513910453292285558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62205198303355443882009-09-09T15:02:27.649-05:002009-09-09T15:02:27.649-05:00This is the kind of hogwash and malarkey that only...This is the kind of hogwash and malarkey that only a woman could proliferate!Drewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40959251066630900842009-09-09T09:17:47.003-05:002009-09-09T09:17:47.003-05:00It's easy for *you* to relax, Bob, you privili...<i>It's easy for *you* to relax, Bob, you priviliged logorrheic fuckwad!</i><br /><br />@Comrade PhysioProf,<br /><br />Calling me "priviliged" [sic] is a micro-inequity that I simply cannot ignore. I must join forces with all of those who have also been considered to be privileged. When you actually get to know us, you will recognize that we are not at all privileged.<br /><br />Calling me verbose is an insult to my intelligence, and is a micro-inequity that cannot be ignored. I must join forces with all of those who are allergic to one-liners and will rally against those who make fun of our use of human languages.<br /><br />Calling me a fuckwad, well, that one I can let go, because it brings a nice sense of "elementary school playground humor" which makes light of this whole topic.<br /><br />Might I ask you to elaborate on what you mean by "privileged"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05513910453292285558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89111103422673667882009-09-09T06:32:05.584-05:002009-09-09T06:32:05.584-05:00The solution? Either we all relax, work on the lar...<i>The solution? Either we all relax, work on the larger things and accept that the "micro-inequities" are just a fact of life. Or, continue to stress ourselves out and keep battling each other until the idea of making fun of someone or making a joke about an attribute someone may have is completely eradicated from our psyche.<br /></i><br />It's easy for *you* to relax, Bob, you priviliged logorrheic fuckwad!Comrade PhysioProfhttp://physioprof.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-73070293756911940052009-09-08T23:51:02.066-05:002009-09-08T23:51:02.066-05:00JCup opines:
The very idea of a "micro-inequ...JCup opines:<br /><br />The very idea of a "micro-inequity" is simultaneously ridiculous and disappointing to the human race that anyone would waste time defining such an inconsequential event.<br /><br />My response:<br /><br />I guess this poster has never considered physics that solve differential equations, in which inevitably the macro-scale action can be modeled as the cumulative effect of a trillion or so micro-scale processes.<br /><br />Micro-inequities follow nearly the definition of thermodynamics, which are robust only in the limit that there are very many particles obeying statistical rules.<br /><br />And most physics can cast as differential equations. There is clearly power in the construct.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21181411556742533542009-09-08T22:15:38.896-05:002009-09-08T22:15:38.896-05:00The only comments I reject are obscene, advertisem...The only comments I reject are obscene, advertisements, are-you-so-and-so guesses, or ones that refer to something about my real life (from readers who know me).Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35368732455640129542009-09-08T22:05:01.561-05:002009-09-08T22:05:01.561-05:00actually i think scientists are the most likely to...actually i think scientists are the most likely to see all evidence as evidence in support of their previous conclusion. It is what you are paid to do and the reason why so much research needs peer review and is still often easily proven to be unsupportable. I think the hypothesis of this article ignores the fact that males tend to exhibit more challenging behavior in quick conversations instead of women, especially men without a ton of social experience (aka scientists). I don't agree with this article at all. I am a male engineer by the way, and I love working with female engineers for the very fact that they don't waste time challenging every sentence for inaccuracies, regardless of what gender is presenting.<br /><br />The very idea of a "micro-inequity" is simultaneously ridiculous and disappointing to the human race that anyone would waste time defining such an inconsequential event.JCuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876381989222565732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75771052716747601292009-09-08T21:33:19.031-05:002009-09-08T21:33:19.031-05:00Are women allowed to use/play the gender card when...Are women allowed to use/play the gender card when appropriate.<br /><br />As a woman, do you ever get asked if you are playing the gender card by a male or female? <br /><br />The whole issue of respect is pretty complicated. If everyone is created equal....people should respect each other regardless of status or position or money.<br /><br />Like your blog and respect that you are willing to allow comments that disagree with you. But sometimes wonder what kind of comments you really censor (and not allow)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38702227057881702322009-09-08T21:28:20.613-05:002009-09-08T21:28:20.613-05:00Sandra Bartky writes about something similar. Sinc...Sandra Bartky writes about something similar. Since sexism is about patterns of power/abuse, no single instance can be attributed to sexism. Therefore women must deal with 1) the abuse of sexism and 2) never being able to pin down which instances are part of sexism and which aren't. To paraphrase: "Was I ignored at the board meeting because I'm a woman or because some thing about 'me', not having to do with gender?" Part of sexism is having to deal with not being able to confirm which specific micros are attributable to sexism. Also Crenshaw and Peller write about racist incidents being justified when they are "disaggregated" from the whole. <br />A science analogy: no weather irregularity can be pinpointed to global warming, but we know that many of them are related. We just can't prove which ones.Michael C.http://standarddeviations.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83768566151750740812009-09-08T21:24:52.172-05:002009-09-08T21:24:52.172-05:00I tend to agree more with Kevin and Bob....
What ...I tend to agree more with Kevin and Bob....<br /><br />What they say makes more sense. It is more dangerous that 10% of the society think/believe that Obama is a Muslim. The magnitude of the problem?<br /><br />I don't disagree regarding the existence of the problem and society perceptions. It is hard to change.<br /><br />Some people perpetuate the problem raised by FSP, both males and females, young and old. Any good realistic short term solutions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-574627298128858232009-09-08T20:45:47.906-05:002009-09-08T20:45:47.906-05:00At the risk of being repetitive:
As CPP just asse...At the risk of being repetitive:<br /><br />As CPP just asserted, the entire point of micro-inequities is that generally they are NOT intentional, and that cumulatively, they DO matter, gender issues being a prime case.<br /><br />Yes, there might be other factors also present in the world.<br /><br />Yes, getting obsessed with them is counterproductive.<br /><br />The take-away message, as I read it, is to remember them as a contributing factor, and strategize to minimize or counter them, or at least not categorically deny their existence.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-56293061188825594282009-09-08T20:07:43.980-05:002009-09-08T20:07:43.980-05:00I think that what happens in society is there are ...I think that what happens in society is there are millions of problems of certain groups being treated improperly due to factor-X. When one group speaks up, the other millions feel unheard. One of two things happens... those who are unheard jump in with a "me too" situation. Or, they try to dismiss the one speaking up in hopes to eventually deflect the attention their way.<br /><br />For instance, a lot of women are treated as if inferior only for being female. Also, many people (men and women) are treated as being socially inferior because they are intelligent (think of terms like nerd, geek, etc...) Some groups who are very physically fit (usually men) are treated as intellectually inferior (think of the "dumb jock" label.) People who play certain kinds of games (think of Dungeons & Dragons) are automatically labeled nerds... socially inept... or lacking a grasp on reality.<br /><br />Christians are labeled as being over-enthusiastic, over-bearing, with a holier-than-thou attitude. Muslims are treated as terrorists. Atheists are labeled as angry or immoral.<br /><br />People who wear glasses are seen as intellectual (see: nerd). Men with red hair are seen as bullies. Women with red hair are seen as sexual spitfires. Women with blonde hair are seen as being more sexually adventurous than women with darker hair.<br /><br />Husbands are seen as being incompetent in the kitchen, annoying with the remote control, sports junkies, and those who will eventually cheat on their spouses. Wives are seen as being good in the kitchen, annoyed by their husbands, hating sports, and those who will eventually be cheated on by their spouses.<br /><br />Create a television program about women who cheat on their husbands, and it is seen as an empowering shows, as the women are finally breaking free from their terrible husbands and are seeking new hunks. Create a television program about men who cheat on their wives, and the theme will still be about the women who join forces together to get even with the cheating men.<br /><br />There are plenty of terrible stereotypes about women. There are also plenty of terrible stereotypes about men. Strip sex out of the equation, and there are still terrible stereotypes about being athletic, intelligent, etc...<br /><br />In other words, when a group focuses on only one of these atrocities, it is easy to assume that all of the other atrocities are being completely ignores or being dismissed as being trivial.<br /><br />The solution? Either we all relax, work on the larger things and accept that the "micro-inequities" are just a fact of life. Or, continue to stress ourselves out and keep battling each other until the idea of making fun of someone or making a joke about an attribute someone may have is completely eradicated from our psyche.<br /><br />Without implementing one of these solutions, we spend all of our time talking down to people for talking down to people.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05513910453292285558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-66331315904371983072009-09-08T19:05:30.681-05:002009-09-08T19:05:30.681-05:00I found it much healthier (and somewhat more ratio...<i>I found it much healthier (and somewhat more rational) to attribute all the rudeness and stupidity I encountered to incompetence, rather than malevolence.<br /></i><br />What the fucking fuck does "malevolence" versus "incompetence" have to do with the issue of the cumulative effects of micro-inequity? The intent of the person making erroneous assumptions that reinforce privilege is wholly irrelevant.Comrade PhysioProfhttp://physioprof.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91753621192876563462009-09-08T17:41:19.406-05:002009-09-08T17:41:19.406-05:00what is AWM?what is AWM?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35430786904215151572009-09-08T16:31:42.547-05:002009-09-08T16:31:42.547-05:00While I don't question the existence of micro-...While I don't question the existence of micro-inequities and microsexism, I do wonder about the value of dwelling on them.<br /><br />I found it much healthier (and somewhat more rational) to attribute all the rudeness and stupidity I encountered to incompetence, rather than malevolence. Compared to the people who comment on this blog, most people are fairly stupid. Expecting rational behavior of them is something that only a freshwater economist should do.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.com