tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6058687624463870801..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Women GirlsFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35252943870255622382010-11-17T10:59:21.701-06:002010-11-17T10:59:21.701-06:00What is wrong with referring to people as people, ...What is wrong with referring to people as people, a person as a person, a child as a child, etc. The person-hood of everyone seems to be the missing link in all situations where people are speaking or acting inconsiderately toward others. <br />Perhaps in some situations we could even say "humans", since there are definitely "people" among other species also? We already have enough humans on this planet, talking about each other with words that emphasize sex all the time might be part of the problem. If we emphasize what we have in common it might be easier to treat each other well automatically!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32501709874229329782010-11-02T14:33:33.329-05:002010-11-02T14:33:33.329-05:00When I can call my boss a boy I might consider all...When I can call my boss a boy I might consider allowing myself to be called a girl. But I doubt it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-68125170990724825662010-06-15T19:41:10.145-05:002010-06-15T19:41:10.145-05:00By the way, as a compromise that satisfies no one,...By the way, as a compromise that satisfies no one, I frequently refer to groups of people (of either or mixed gender) as "folks;" in the salutations of emails for example. This strikes me as mostly guy-ish, but perhaps insufficiently equalizing. How do we disciples of FSP feel about it?Mordecaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12336187957080248928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30129435741883138772010-06-15T19:29:44.956-05:002010-06-15T19:29:44.956-05:00As for the (not especially analogous) man/guy/boy ...As for the (not especially analogous) man/guy/boy situation, as an early 20s guy I'm kind of averse to the word "men" and especially the singular "man;" I think it's less that I don't want to be thought of as an adult, as that I don't want to accept my grandfather's gender roles.<br /><br />"Man" strikes me as kind of a purple word, in a Churchillian kind of way. ("The power of man has grown in every sphere..." "...but we must never cease to proclaim in fearless tones the great principles of freedom and the rights of man..." and so on.) There's a glory to it. Sometimes that's good, but I don't want to be smacked with it every time I specify my gender, and I especially don't want our only good word for that to be itself so gendered.<br /><br />I feel really awkward calling myself a man; like I'm puffing myself up involuntarily and might have to fight someone, or at least grow a huge beard and stride around campus ramrod-straight glaring at people all day. That's largely why I prefer "guy;" there's none of that in there. It connotes a sort of easinessgoing that I actually possess.<br /><br />"Boy" is also a good word, but lends itself to different purposes.<br /><br />I think we can agree that the gynonym problem should be settled to the satisfaction of the gynaikes in question (the satisfaction ton gynaikon?) and not to mine, but I will say this: for me as a guy to call someone a woman strikes me as kind of distancing, in a "how do you do madam" sort of way. Not language that connotes a genuine rapport. Gal however doesn't have this problem -- sure, it's kind of old-world-celtic, but so was "guy" until recently, and apart from that "gal" has all the right connotations.<br /><br />I will say, though, that I'm horribly averse to the word "lady;" my grandmother, for example, considered its antonym to be w****. When I hear "lady" I hear it as "you appear virtuous enough, for now" and it chills my blood a bit. I'd sleep easier if we could bury that word for good, along with a number of others.Mordecaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12336187957080248928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-90022172690839841572010-04-18T13:53:38.491-05:002010-04-18T13:53:38.491-05:00I remember reading an article in a magazine aimed ...I remember reading an article in a magazine aimed at teenaged girls (that must have been awhile ago, back when I had some of those in my home) in which the author confessed to "'guy' envy": she wished there were a word less formal than "woman" but less minutal than "girl". She nominated "guy" as the substitute (just as women had co-opted jeans, sneakers, &c.).<br /><br />I would prefer the revival of "gal" myself, but hey....Dr. Psychohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674134879261502504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70219665132597055892010-04-12T03:24:34.001-05:002010-04-12T03:24:34.001-05:00I disagree with Franglais. I work in a French lab,...I disagree with Franglais. I work in a French lab, and I (nearly 30) am regularly called a 'girl' whereas younger men are always referred to as 'men', sometimes in the same sentence.<br /><br />What also drives mes mad is that on the CNRS application form (for permanent jobs), there are three boxes: Monsieur, Madame, Mademoiselle. The missing box is of course 'Doctor', showing that they don't care if you already have your Ph.D. or not, but find your marital status relevant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16431191359504438052010-04-04T06:41:34.460-05:002010-04-04T06:41:34.460-05:00"Woman" was considered derogatory when &..."Woman" was considered derogatory when "Lady" was the accepted term to refer to a female person in some English dialects/classes. I was often corrected for that slip when I was very young (1960s/70s) That's why some people still have a problem with it I think. I'm surprised to hear that there is a swing back to "girl" from "woman".mOOmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440274434662150925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55921889722441743212010-03-30T10:19:30.249-05:002010-03-30T10:19:30.249-05:00I (a youngish woman) use "ladies" inform...I (a youngish woman) use "ladies" informally with all-female groups of friends as an approximate equivalent to "guys"... but I would be offended if I were addressed this way in professional context by colleagues (exception: colleagues who are also good firends, female, close to my age).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8408299906519348692010-03-29T07:08:29.395-05:002010-03-29T07:08:29.395-05:00To me calling me as girl means lack of worldly exp...To me calling me as girl means lack of worldly experienced, Immature. Hmmm! But I think it really depends on how the word was used or delivered that makes it offensive or not.Police jobshttp://www.police-recruitment.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11631286597121768482010-03-29T07:08:29.394-05:002010-03-29T07:08:29.394-05:00Well it really depends on the kind of women or gir...Well it really depends on the kind of women or girls you’re talking to. As for me I find it very offensive to call me girl well I’m not a teenager anymore and in-between.web design Los Angeleshttp://www.itchair.com/web-design-los-angeles.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3527121763162257812010-03-28T18:42:38.010-05:002010-03-28T18:42:38.010-05:00I think one of the anonymous comments gets it exac...I think one of the anonymous comments gets it exactly right: "At least in my experience, however, the sexist [sic] in universities have managed to learn how to correct the most egregious language errors, without correcting the underlying problem." I would rather be called a girl by someone who will listen to me and treat me (otherwise) with respect than be called a woman by someone who otherwise doesn't treat me with respect. But I have seldom met a native English speaker who refered to women as "girls" in a professional setting who was not sexist in other ways too.<br /><br />There are many more harmful expressions of sexism than calling women "girls," but this is something easy to prove because it's objective. If I consistently get unfairly harsh evaluations or get fewer invited talks or get less grant money than my male peers, it's harder to prove if it's sexism, even if my qualifications and accomplishments are similar. If I'm trying to prove that a male colleague is sexist, it's easier to document that he calls women girls than, say, that he has a long history of "personality conflicts" with women and no history of conflicts with men.<br /><br />But then, I also think that some of the problem is that people insist that we have enough proof to win a lawsuit before they'll even attempt to address the problem. If I come to my supervisor and say Dr. Jones insults me constantly and he tries to make me do all of the menial work and he treats all of the men in the lab differently, why can't my supervisor sit Dr. Jones down and discuss the problematic behavior with him? Why does the behavior have to get bad enough that I could win a lawsuit? When I went to the spokesperson of one of my former collaborations with Sherry Towers' paper on gender discrimination in the allocation of invited talks in D0 and said, hey, look, their invited talk allocation procedure is exactly the same as ours, shouldn't we evaluate our procedure and make sure it's fair, was the only response really to say that one should not even consider this unless and until I had proven objectively that our procedure was unfair and that the women weren't really just not good enough? I admit, I seize on things like calling women "girls" when I'm having problems with a male colleague, but I only do this because other complaints aren't taken seriously.Madscientistgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11211394943035339771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-20911277043374015872010-03-27T22:00:47.614-05:002010-03-27T22:00:47.614-05:00"It seems to me that they think being a "..."It seems to me that they think being a "woman" is an unfortunate or embarrassing condition for which they need to find a euphamism, and that assumption is insulting in itself."<br /><br />Aha! I've always wondered why it bothers me that some people seem unable to use the word "woman", and why I often feel annoyed by their reliance on "lady" or "female" instead. I think you've put your finger on it!amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8140502412370128712010-03-26T23:18:47.502-05:002010-03-26T23:18:47.502-05:00Every year the RAs in my all-female dorms have sta...Every year the RAs in my all-female dorms have started most of their emails by greeting us as ladies. They then use that pronoun throughout their messages. (I searched my inbox, and the only other instance of ladies starting an email is when a TA called our discussion section "ladies and gentlemen.") <br /><br />Whenever I read it, it feels like we're playing dress-up in the term.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28146539610637740092010-03-26T17:07:42.661-05:002010-03-26T17:07:42.661-05:00I see no problem with using the word "woman&q...I see no problem with using the word "woman" to refer to adult females. To me it gives the connotation of maturity and responsibility and makes the very real tangible distinction that you are an adult not a child. If being an adult, being mature and responsible equates to being "old and stodgy" then that's more a sign of insecurity in the mind of the subject, than reality. I'm a woman in my early-30s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38389381824009595802010-03-26T14:07:24.571-05:002010-03-26T14:07:24.571-05:00As a youngish female person I find the term girl o...As a youngish female person I find the term girl offensive. I tend to respond by referring to anyone who uses the term as a boy or an infant. Being called "a female" is irritating as well because it brings to mind breeding stock of various livestock species.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22730765531272550842010-03-26T11:27:56.953-05:002010-03-26T11:27:56.953-05:00I have noticed another irritating phenomenon. I o...I have noticed another irritating phenomenon. I often have the sense that some men will bend over backwards to use almost any word but the word "woman." They stumble around awkwardly until they finally spit out "lady" or "female." It is almost as if they think the word "woman" is an insult. My father-in-law admitted that he actually was worried that "woman" is an insulting word.<br /><br />On the one hand, part of me says I ought to sympathize with men who are confronting linguistic territory that seems to them fraught with peril. On the other hand, my immediate reaction is irritation. It seems to me that they think being a "woman" is an unfortunate or embarrassing condition for which they need to find a euphamism, and that assumption is insulting in itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12953840862566369762010-03-26T11:22:40.041-05:002010-03-26T11:22:40.041-05:00When I went off to a women's college 20 years ...When I went off to a women's college 20 years ago, we were told to eradicate the term "girl" from our vocabularies, except to refer to those under 18. It felt painfully unnatural at first to refer to each other as "women." But within just a few weeks, it came to seem perfectly normal to the point that it was grating when an outsider would use the term "girls." <br /><br />That said, I am not offended by the use of the term "girls" to refer to very young women, because I understand there aren't a lot of alternatives. I was annoyed when someone referred in a work context referred to a 45-year old professional as "that girl."Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77833413843939469542010-03-26T07:05:43.137-05:002010-03-26T07:05:43.137-05:00I am a '30' woman who sometimes has 'g...I am a '30' woman who sometimes has 'girls night' with my girlfriends. However, in a professional sense, I always prefer woman and I strive to refer to the other women I interact with (college -aged and up) as such and not as 'girls'. <br /><br />One thing that bugged me during the Olympics was that during the downhill skiing the announcers referred to the women skiers as 'girls'. Some of the 'girls' were nearly my age! The description seemed inappropriate and disrespectful. Unfortunately, I didn't get to hear the announcers for the male skiers, but I am betting they were not 'boys'!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89681741783997009222010-03-26T06:13:46.589-05:002010-03-26T06:13:46.589-05:00What's fascinating about this to me is that I ...What's fascinating about this to me is that I didn't have the chance to read your post yesterday, and yet I was thinking of exactly this same issue as I was walking across town.<br /><br />I pretty much concluded that only "women" will do in this situation (for me, anyway; I'm a "guy," so your milage may vary).<br /><br />"Girls," can be perfectly well-used in an informal situation for things like "girls night out," or "hanging out with the girls," etc., but if I were a woman and one of my colleagues called <i>me</i> a girl in a professional context, I'd be inclined to commit an act of violence. <br /><br />The fact that some people are willing to accept it without taking offense doesn't mean that it isn't rude.<br /><br />And while some people here have suggested "ladies" as an alternative, I've always found that a problematic word. <br /><br />It could be just me (or maybe my age cohort: early 30's), but I feel as though it can be used in two ways: 1) Formally -the parallel to "gentlemen," not "guys;" and thus more formal and stodgy than "women", or 2) Informally, in a way that has always sounded a tad belittling to me (except when used by people of a certain age). <br /><br />I don't claim my feelings on this are necessarily correct, but "ladies" used informally by people not pushing retirement age has always made me cringe.<br /><br />"Guys" used in a unisex way, and "gals," for those who can pull it off with aplomb both seem fine for relatively informal situations to me, but if I ever have the need to discuss a group of female human adults in a professional setting, I think I'll stick with "women."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54681389224527812852010-03-25T23:54:02.815-05:002010-03-25T23:54:02.815-05:00it's tricky cuz the double standrd already exi...it's tricky cuz the double standrd already exists. <br /><br />girl ~ young attractive female<br />woman ~ stiff authority figure<br /><br />nobody likes to be a stiff authority figure, so when you call a 28 yr old female a "woman" it's not as charming.<br /><br />or something like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26855984496396094432010-03-25T18:29:51.608-05:002010-03-25T18:29:51.608-05:00How about the oh-so-slang, but gender neutral &quo...How about the oh-so-slang, but gender neutral "peeps". As in<br /><br />"Hey peeps, waz up!!" <br /><br />Okay, seriously, I am trying to break my habit of starting out collaborative emails with "Hey guys," (I am a girl/female/woman)... what do I use instead? <br /><br />Hi people,<br />Hi all, (current favorite)<br />Hi everyone,<br />Hi,<br />(no greeting)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50385066623014006522010-03-25T17:25:04.840-05:002010-03-25T17:25:04.840-05:00My grandparents use "gal" with aplomb. ...My grandparents use "gal" with aplomb. I think it would be perfect if it didn't sound so strange coming out of the mouth of anyone under 80.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-5208386489549094222010-03-25T14:21:39.985-05:002010-03-25T14:21:39.985-05:00I find it surprising that nobody here notices why ...I find it surprising that nobody here notices why this may be, - women in their twens and thirties being called girls, and some of those even liking it. <br />It's because in our societies today, women are not allowed to grow up, - we've got to stay size 0, childlike with tiny waists, sweet faces, childlike, to be liked by men. <br /><br />It is demeaning, and it is reflected in how many of us choose to clothe themselfes. I rather be calles a women my age than being told I look 10 years younger than I am. I think this issue is about allowing women to grow old(er) gracefully and not expecting them to look like 16 until they ar 50 years old. <br /><br />I hate it when someone calls me "girl". It's nothing like guy. It's like boy, and everybody who calls me "girl" gets called "boy" in response.Fiahttp://academiaandme.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17218198579576079562010-03-25T14:21:39.984-05:002010-03-25T14:21:39.984-05:00I don't care that much about girls vs. women. ...I don't care that much about girls vs. women. I actually hate the word gal. It's outdated and I tend to associate it with things like "Gal Friday". Very Mad Men, if you will. <br /><br />Lately I'm disgusted by my friends with boy babies who insist on using the phrase "little guy". As in "the little guy did this" and "the little guy did that". Get over it, he's a BABY. He's not growing up any faster no matter what you call him.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-66592531470237718082010-03-25T14:15:56.844-05:002010-03-25T14:15:56.844-05:00P.S. I should also say that if someone ADDRESSED m...P.S. I should also say that if someone ADDRESSED me as "girl," that would be quite offensive. At least in my experience, however, the sexist in universities have managed to learn how to correct the most egregious language errors, without correcting the underlying problem. I worked in finance for a few years after undergrad, however, and especially among the reps (95% of which were male at my firm), I was constantly receiving comments that reduced me to my attractiveness and age.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com