tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6228580194147266509..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: What to Expect When You're CluelessFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10548624491197369212009-12-06T14:38:52.637-06:002009-12-06T14:38:52.637-06:00I'm basically a student 2 mostly because I hav...I'm basically a student 2 mostly because I have ADD so it IS hard to take in too much info at once and I prefer to focus on the task at hand. Although this doesn't keep me from doing quality research, it presents a specific adviser/student interaction that I must have. Typically the advisor (or at least someone in the lab) would be patient and the student hardworking. For me I do need the extra push and support to help link together concepts however, I would never ask anyone to spoon feed me anything. Just be patient if I ask a question twice to get things straight or in the right order, or to make sure I understand something right. Some advisers don't mind doing this, others very much dislike it, which is too bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75050729859186049672009-09-30T22:32:12.620-05:002009-09-30T22:32:12.620-05:00Can (should) the difference between Students 1 and...<i>Can (should) the difference between Students 1 and 2 described above be used as an indicator of potential success in graduate school?</i><br /><br />Collect data for these two over the next five years and find out!Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35778022025266741962009-09-25T02:24:18.242-05:002009-09-25T02:24:18.242-05:00I think it's just too soon to predict future s...I think it's just too soon to predict future success of either Student 1 or 2. I've known grad students who spent years being clueless like S2 to the point of inducing migraines in me everytime I had to repeat advice and instructions fot the tenth time as if none of it was ever taken note of. but somehow at some point those S2's became less and less clueless as if they finally reached enlightenment when everything clicked. then once that happened they were incredibly productive and ahead of the curve.<br /><br />Some people just take longer to get clued in because they may be overly focused or concerned about other issues at present. Part of it may also be maturity.<br /><br />So to make judgments on two individuals so early in the game is, I believe, a mistake.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78321030846461278032009-09-23T09:16:17.972-05:002009-09-23T09:16:17.972-05:00Great post! I can really relate to it because I WA...Great post! I can really relate to it because I WAS S2. I finally found some mentorship to help me get into graduate school, but it's not simply an intuitive process. <br /><br />I didn't know how to conduct an effective search for graduate schools. At first, I was clueless about the importance of student-faculty fit. <br /><br />I applied more than once and I finally got in (and recently finished with a Ph.D.), so I've been working hard with students with promise to help them navigate some of these non-intuitive "how-tos" when applying to graduate programs.Get Into Grad School in Psychologyhttp://www.acceptedtogradschool.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-73928914476583398412009-09-21T03:44:31.908-05:002009-09-21T03:44:31.908-05:00I was -- and still am, to some extent -- a Student...I was -- and still am, to some extent -- a Student 2 who blundered my way into a top grad program. It provided a very rough learning experience when I was booted out of the program for not making significant progress after a year.<br /><br />That was something that I really did need to go through in order to be forced to take a hard look at myself. Now I've found a career in a field related to my former course of study and couldn't be happier.<br /><br />Ask student 2 what they expect to get out of grad school, and if it is a vague "I want to teach or do research""-type answer, he or she needs to have it spelled out for them how hard this can be and what return on their effort can be expected if they do succeed.charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-19836580281303624482009-09-20T22:51:03.049-05:002009-09-20T22:51:03.049-05:00the best predictor of future behavior is past beha...the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior... my prediction is that Student 2 will end up in a corporate job with little to no independent thinking required.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80833242372023704612009-09-18T13:37:46.244-05:002009-09-18T13:37:46.244-05:00Okay, I definitely distorted S1 and S2 ...just a b...Okay, I definitely distorted S1 and S2 ...just a bit... but it was fun to write about my exaggerated versions of them! I think it's a fair point that S2 might one-day become an S1, perhaps in a different field, once finding a true passion.Petrochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02217119917847445017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35226728092044422302009-09-18T13:33:11.878-05:002009-09-18T13:33:11.878-05:00My email indicates that this anecdote freaked out ...My email indicates that this anecdote freaked out some people who worried that the Student 2's of the world might not get into grad school. It is important to realize that Student 1 and Student 2 will have extremely similar applications to grad school in terms of their academic records and research experience. I am quite confident that both will be accepted by graduate programs. My anecdote involved my musing about what would happen when they were in grad school. Would one or both succeed based on the characteristics I described?Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-16971443369818085632009-09-18T01:03:26.912-05:002009-09-18T01:03:26.912-05:00I think some commenters have been too harsh with S...I think some commenters have been too harsh with Student 1 and too kind to Student 2, though of course my opinion is influenced by having more information. Student 2 has worked closely with 3 professors and several grad students, attends weekly group meetings, and has received a lot of advice about grad school/careers but is still floundering. Student 2 may do well with more help and I'm willing to give some of that help. Student 1 is not a narrow political operator but someone who loves Science and who is successfully working full time and finishing a Science degree -- this is an impressive person.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27712332660554482902009-09-18T00:55:51.844-05:002009-09-18T00:55:51.844-05:00The S1s have very narrowly defined career paths, w...The S1s have very narrowly defined career paths, whereas the S2s' careers develop in more exciting and less predictable ways. While the S1s will (predictably) make their names in their respective fields, obtain jobs at increasingly more prestigious institutions, and perhaps wind up department heads, they won't depart the fields in which they initially began plotting their career and 'networking' (a euphemism, let's not forget, for asskissing), skills they learned on account of their upbringing, steeped in the good ol' boy culture of their parents' academia. The S2s, on the other hand, after receiving their initial degrees, will branch out into different fields, in which--learning from their immediate post-undergrad, S2-era cluelessness--they will comport themselves in an S1-like manner; however, being in fact S2s and not S1s, they will not engage in department pageantry, working outside of their advisors' proper expertise, but doing so effectively: that is, they will give the department talks that everyone makes sure to attend, because they're interesting and not like the S1s' ponderous and career-safe bromides on microspecialized minutiae. Eventually moving into newly emerging, crossdisciplinary fields of study, the S2s will teach those courses that everyone recommends their friends take because, let's face it, the class is "fockin' fascinatin' fixins" (if I might speculate as to the slang of twenty years from now) while the S1s will, in their capacities as instructors, accumulate enough scathing reviews on their ratemyprofessors.com pages to force the web site to create a whole new category of (to continue the speculatory phrasing) "flunkin' flairin' floptard." Actually, they'll probably just name the category after some particularly notorious S1.<br /><br />So, to answer your question: yes, I think that the difference is a strong indicator of graduate school--and future academic--success; however, I believe I differ with you and most commenters on how best to define <i>success</i>.Petrochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02217119917847445017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53975043190013321962009-09-17T16:22:13.733-05:002009-09-17T16:22:13.733-05:00It is very very very difficult as an undergrad to ...It is very very very difficult as an undergrad to get this kind of inside information. I was essentially a student 2. I had no idea what I was doing in applying to grad school, so I basically applied to a bunch of general programs and gave a vague idea in my letter of the broad field I was interested in working in.<br /><br />It seems like student 1's I know are sometimes lacking in the bigger picture. They get great advice on how to apply to grad school from their current adviser, so they will seem savvy about the process to anyone they talk to. They apply to labs in the same field as their undergrad adviser, often not really taking the time to really THINK if these are the types of scientific questions they want to work on. But they will get lots of help from their current adviser, often involving word of mouth recommendations to labs they are applying to.<br /><br />In this light, "clueless" student 2's (who don't have good information from their advisers and don't know "the game") may really be more independent, in that they have to muddle through themselves, on their own merits (rather than their adviser's).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3075427239832302272009-09-16T16:58:20.940-05:002009-09-16T16:58:20.940-05:00I feel some commenters are being overly harsh to s...I feel some commenters are being overly harsh to student 2.<br /><br />I definitely believe that people can develop and change. Especially when they're so young - how old is s2, 21, 22?<br /><br />Some people just develop faster than others, and some need more time and more mentoring, that's all.<br /><br />As for e-mails to possible tutors in grad school, I can imagine it is just annoying. I also got into a good Masters course without doing so.<br /><br />The thing is, school does its best to crush initiative and curiosity out of kids. I think I remember FSP, you posting about how your daughter did extra schoolwork and her teacher didn't react well? Precisely. Kids who ask questions are seen as disruptive (by other kids, as much as teachers).<br /><br />It just takes time to grow out of that conditioning.<br /><br />You have to know the questions to ask, have a framework of experience to fit things into, and that can take time. I know I struggled when I started work (in a proper graduate job) with needing more direction/ mentoring, and felt stupid and as if I *should* know things - but why? How should I?<br /><br />There are 'unknown unknowns', if you like.<br /><br />I think FSP was expecting a bit much of s2.<br /><br />Student 1 is a bit more savvy and mature, that's all - it doesn't mean student 2 won't cope with graduate school.butterflywingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16873407072604417252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34385166757835931512009-09-16T06:58:05.099-05:002009-09-16T06:58:05.099-05:00I am surprised that so many people say that they w...I am surprised that so many people say that they were Student 2.<br /><br />FSP points out that FSP is "clueless". There is no doubt more to the story than she's sharing here besides that one awkward social exchange.<br /><br />Student 2 may be lucky to stumble into graduate school, and maybe once she/he is there some maturing will take place and the student will stop being so clueless.<br /><br />But I will freely admit that I am biased against Student 2. I make it very clear that I will offer guidance on getting into graduate school and am happy to do so. If a student chooses to still be clueless and to not show much initiative, how is the student going to handle a dissertation or being an independent scholar?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63207998170514940172009-09-15T22:51:30.725-05:002009-09-15T22:51:30.725-05:00I wanted to raise a slightly different point. How ...I wanted to raise a slightly different point. How does the S1 student feel about all the 'nuturing' of the S2 studnet. I am very much along the S1 lines, the only other student my advisor has is a S2, only more so. It frustrates me to see my advisor bending over backwards to help this guy with even the most basic things when I worked it all out for myself. I'm not talking about actual science, more admin kind of things. Its almost like because I am capable of working it out by myself I am chucked in the deep end while his hand is constantly being held. <br /><br />For the record we both come from families with a few university graduates but no other academics, I've learnt most of what I need to know by reading university handbooks and attending information sessions. If anything given the 'maleness' of my field I should be the one at a disadvantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48589811188329215952009-09-15T19:37:29.170-05:002009-09-15T19:37:29.170-05:00I'm not in a science field, but people in my f...I'm not in a science field, but people in my field are expected to write to potential advisors before applying to a program.<br /><br />At least, that was what I was told! But I got awfully discouraged when the first few emails I sent were either ignored or got boilerplate replies along the lines that Physioprof describes.<br /><br />Being shy, and extremely sensitive to things like sending people emails they don't want to receive, I gave up. Because the only positive response I got was one in which I wrote to Professor A saying that his friend Professor B had suggested I write about XYZ, I concluded that what was REALLY expected was not the email version of cold-calls, but that special people's special advisors would introduce them to the people they needed to know in order to get into good schools. It was clear that I wasn't a special enough person to get more than one such introduction. Or else I just wasn't well-connected enough.<br /><br />However, it worked out for me in the end because I made some of my own connections. After giving up on the emails, I decided instead to do some networking at my field's Big Conference. I didn't have much more success with introducing myself to random people from the programs I applied to -- they were all polite, but I didn't feel like I had sparked any real interest in any of them.<br /><br />But, I did take the opportunity while at the conference to get involved with a work group that was working on a project -- not to further my chances of admission to grad school, but because I was interested in the project. It was serendipity that one of the other group members, it turned out, was on the admissions committee of my first choice school, which I was admitted to with funding. (Some other schools invited me to pay them a lot of money to enroll in their MA programs, but... no.)<br /><br />I was happy with the results but the whole process left a bad taste in my mouth. I guess it's a lot easier for people who aren't as shy as I am. But it's frustrating to me that I was advised to send out all these emails which, in the end, seem to be pointless and an annoyance to the recipients. And I can't imagine that the professors in my field at various Fancypants Ivies are at all interested in hearing what everyone's senior thesis was about and how it relates to their research. So I am forced to conclude that it's a lot like the old days, and students get into those schools because they know someone who knows someone. If that's true, people giving out advice should cut everyone a break and not tell applicants to send those stupid emails, in my opinion.newgradstudentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84821777581225280092009-09-15T19:31:26.975-05:002009-09-15T19:31:26.975-05:00Lots of comments about how one shouldn't write...Lots of comments about how one shouldn't write off the S2s, although there seems to be a transmutation of FSPs incurious student into the simply shy, inhibited, and uninformed people posters remember themselves as being.<br /><br />Perhaps a different question would be the one faced yearly in our admissions. If we are looking for 3 students, and need to admit 6-8 to get them (against the top competition), and 30 apply, should we opt for S1s or S2s?John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84524600609937072572009-09-15T16:06:23.468-05:002009-09-15T16:06:23.468-05:00Such an interesting post, and interesting comments...Such an interesting post, and interesting comments, as well. It seems the underlying question behind the post and comments is this: can a good researcher be made, or are good researchers just born that way? <br /><br />Or maybe if they aren't born that way, are people beyond hope of change by the time they are seniors in college? Or, as some commenters suggest, will they just need more than one year to grow into potentially good researchers? <br /><br />It reminds me of an article in Scientific American Mind ("The Secret to Raising Smart Kids", Dec 2007). One of the major points of the article is the importance of maintaning a "growth mindset," believing that success can be accomplished by effort, that a person can become good at something. The growth mindset is the opposite of the mindset that innate talent and intelligence are the only keys to success.<br /><br />As a former Student2, and someone who hopes to grow and learn my whole life-long, I have to say, give people a chance to learn and change! If they really want to achieve a certain goal, give them the chance to learn what will be necessary, and let them make an informed choice.<br /><br />That said, I don't mean that ill-prepared or apparently ill-suited students should be written amazing letters of rec and admitted to top-tier graduate programs just to give them a chance. But if those students ask silly-sounding questions, try to answer them or direct them towards an answer. If they express goals they seem ill-suited to achieve, give them clues about what you see as strengths they need to develop to be successful. Don't dismiss them just because they aren't the perfect researcher *yet*.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11229416808512039455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21278787554174485592009-09-15T15:58:20.974-05:002009-09-15T15:58:20.974-05:00I would have been Student 2. While I was very good...I would have been Student 2. While I was very good at research, once I was in a place, I was terrified of contacting people, especially authority figures, that I didn't know personally. I'd fret over every single letter of an email to be sent, and just couldn't deal with this. Too stressful. <br /><br />So, I would say: You just can't extrapolate.Ursulanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45252392716621106022009-09-15T15:56:02.290-05:002009-09-15T15:56:02.290-05:00I was an S2 when I first started college. I then ...I was an S2 when I first started college. I then had the blessing to leave the college I was at (which was filled with S1s) and go to a college where I got into the McNair scholars program. The program takes kids who come from disadvantaged backgrounds (either ethnic minorities or low-income/parents only finished high school) and gets them into doing research, prepping them for applying to grad school, helping them get ready for the grad school experience, etc. Coming from a rural area where virtually no one had parents that were academics, this program was a life-saver for a lot of smart kids who were generally clueless but were capable of becoming academics. A lot of bright people I know ended up shooting a lot higher than if they'd just gone to school for a BS, and ended up going to some really excellent schools and succeeding.<br /><br />I think individual mentoring by faculty can be helpful, but there is a lot to learn, and programs like this can better prepare undergrads...if they're lucky enough to get into them (which is to say, if they were unlucky enough before going to college).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85153778612486670572009-09-15T15:52:53.410-05:002009-09-15T15:52:53.410-05:00At my large midwestern public university we have a...At my large midwestern public university we have a, shall we say, "healthy" pre-med population, many of whom need letters. If student 2 happened to be a chemistry major, chances are many of his/her friends applied to med school. At my school it is the procedure to write one letter that is put on file at career services. If a chem major talks to pre-meds (who normally apply a year earlier) the chem major would get potentially incorrect information. <br /><br />When I applied to chemistry grad school, all the schools that accepted me called. These days, of course, we invite all our admitted students to visit for a weekend. <br /><br />I think it is wonderful when I get emails from students interested in graduate research in my lab. When I applied about 15 years ago, I sent emails to lots of professors. On the other hand, I got virtually no advice about how to apply to grad school, even though I had a great research mentor. Maybe I didn't ask enough questions. Hard to recall.<br /><br />I wish I knew the formula for success in grad school. In my own group, the students who ask me questions and are active about getting my attention seem to do better, but I also have a superb student who I bug. Whatever, I only have 5 students so that is not really stastically meaningful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50981561508703103842009-09-15T14:07:23.782-05:002009-09-15T14:07:23.782-05:00An interesting line:
Student...has been proactive...An interesting line:<br /><br /><i>Student...has been proactive about doing research experiences <b>(for credit)</b> and science-related jobs <b>(for pay)</b></i><br /><br /><br />Why the clarification in brackets?<br /><br />This sounds like a reproach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32066214087650333322009-09-15T14:03:51.331-05:002009-09-15T14:03:51.331-05:00Also for Rachel P:
Here are a couple of links tha...Also for Rachel P:<br /><br />Here are a couple of links that give advice that may be obvious, or might help you organize your thoughts and reflect on how to go about asking questions:<br /><br />http://faculty.gvc.edu/ssnyder/121/Goodquestions.html<br /><br />http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html<br /><br />And on finding mentors:<br /><br />http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2007_08_31/caredit.a0700123<br /><br />http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2006_11_24/noDOI.5547390452111196526<br /><br />http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2009_08_14/caredit.a0900101ThirdYearGradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-36579250269012721302009-09-15T13:54:18.304-05:002009-09-15T13:54:18.304-05:00I was student 2 though more closer to S3 than S2. ...I was student 2 though more closer to S3 than S2. I still got into grad school but I just never know what to write in those e-mails which everyone keeps hounding us to do. To be honest I'd rather spend my time reading on the subject or focusing on my research instead. As for getting information only when needed, my supervisor/advisor does that too. I know it is annoying at times but in my situation if I had gotten it when I had been doing a different type of analysis it would just distract me as I tend to evaluate the newer, hense less well known problem first and everything will just go really wrong.<br /><br />So that's my take from the other side of the spectrum. It kind of annoyed both my undergrad tutors/advisors at first but once they understood the way my brain worked I don't really need that much help anyway. So I guess, for some of the S2s it's not that they haven't got a clue what to do but rather it's just not considered important enough to spend the effort knowing full well that it can affect the result of the task at hand.hkukbilingualidiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09347011556987578563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28451188428308994452009-09-15T13:41:44.659-05:002009-09-15T13:41:44.659-05:00Rachel P. wrote:
now in my first month of grad sc...Rachel P. wrote:<br /><br /><i>now in my first month of grad school I'm still trying to get over being scared to ask questions I feel like I should somehow magically know the answer to, and it's kind of problematic... so if anyone has any advice re. this kind of fear/feeling, let me know :)</i><br /><br />I felt that way a lot at the beginning of my time in grad school (and sometime still do). My anxiety about appearing stupid/naive/ignorant was compounded by the fact that upon arrival I happened to be significantly younger than anyone else in my group, and one of only two women at the time in a group of >20. Often, everyone else seemed to be speaking a secret language and conversations would assume some canon of shared knowledge that I didn't have yet.<br /><br />What I have learned is that most people react very well if you can just get over your hesitations and ask questions. If you have a specific question and the answer can't be easily found by a few minutes of googling, ask. Nobody knows everything, and asking appropriate questions shows that you are inquisitive, that you recognize your own limitations, and that you respect others' expertise. As an undergrad, you were usually confronted with problems that you could solve on your own fairly quickly using techniques you already knew or had been taught. As a grad student, you have to figure out when it is worth slogging through something on your own, and when it is better to ask someone who is knowledgeable / experienced (the former approach can sometimes result in you learning more; the latter helps you make progress more quickly). If the problem is getting to know the unwritten rules of your department, try to find someone who has been around for a while, is politically savvy/effective, and might be willing to take you under their wing (if your adviser can serve this role, great; if not, try to find someone else to help you with this).<br /><br />Also, talk about it with other new graduate students. Probably many of them are having trouble figuring out the same things, and have similar fears about asking. Knowing that you are not alone in being confused or clueless at times can help you develop the courage to ask questions.<br /><br />Remember that not knowing something doesn't mean you are incapable, it just means you still have a lot to learn, and that this is normal when you take on a new role in a new environment, working on new topics. Everyone else has been through this, too, so they will not think poorly of you for asking questions (and if they do, it reflects on them more than it does on you).<br /><br />Once you have started asking, you will figure out who gives you especially good advice or help on various topics, and you can go back to those people later with any new, related questions that come up.ThirdYearGradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-36670406587717357622009-09-15T13:30:26.625-05:002009-09-15T13:30:26.625-05:00Direct pre-application contact with possible thesi...Direct pre-application contact with possible thesis advisors is highly field specific. In the biomedical sciences, the vast majority of PhD programs require two or three laboratory rotations before choosing a dissertation lab, the entire purpose of which is for students and mentors to "find one another". In light of this, when I receive e-mails from undergraduates expressing interest in my lab and our graduate program, I respond with boilerplate thanking them for their interest and directing them to the Web site that contains the application information for our program. Attempts to initiate any sort of colloquy about their interests and/or the research programs in my lab are ignored.Comrade Physioprofhttp://physioprof.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com