tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6663889621455517104..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: EntitledFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62771611429089300092009-02-27T11:20:00.000-06:002009-02-27T11:20:00.000-06:00I think in this day and age, exams and grades base...I think in this day and age, exams and grades based on memorization of some facts and figures are "passee".<BR/><BR/>It is not just he fact that we have google at our finger tips, but it is also because the realm of knowledge is becoming so vast, so multidisciplinary and so fast. Basic laws of physics and physiology might hold; but we are constantly learning about new exceptions!<BR/><BR/>I think, what professors need to do is to teach students to think, to analyse and to synthesize knowledge.<BR/><BR/>The worth of a well rounded review article in my opinion is much higher than an A++.<BR/><BR/>I have taken many of those A+s in my undergraduate years; but somehow what still shines through the dust of time on my memory is the details of all research projects that <B>I "chose" to do.</B> <BR/><BR/>I think our universities are due for reform.Najhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728668942925956610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9637124045276435202009-02-24T11:54:00.000-06:002009-02-24T11:54:00.000-06:00I'm going to throw something out here that might b...I'm going to throw something out here that might be completely crazy. I'm sure you won't hesitate to let me know if it is. <BR/><BR/>What if instead of getting rid of grades, we get rid of Gen-Ed requirements (at least most of them)?<BR/><BR/>Because I think a lot of students are bitter (I know I was) about paying a ton of money to take classes that are not even a little bit relevant to my major or field of interest. <BR/><BR/>I would be very curious to know how many of these Entitled students are majors in the subject versus non-majors. I would hypothesize that many more non-majors are asking for their effort to be graded over understanding. <BR/><BR/>I'm not saying it's an excuse for acting like brats, because it's not. But every course you take as an undergrad affects your gpa, and if you're moving into the job market after graduating, it's your overall gpa that counts as it gets compared to the gpa you have in your major. <BR/><BR/>I think a lot of students don't see the importance of focusing on a subject they didn't want to take instead of cramming their little brains with information from the courses in their major. <BR/><BR/>Believe me, I know all the reasons why people disagree about getting rid of gen-eds. I did a speech on it once that ended up turning into an argument between two sides of the audience. My favorite reason I heard (from a prof) for keeping them? Supporting smaller departments by making students take classes in those fields.JLKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05396471022931966499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81518139694319226862009-02-24T06:04:00.000-06:002009-02-24T06:04:00.000-06:00I totally agree. At my school (in Australia - I gr...I totally agree. At my school (in Australia - I graduated last year) we had an "effort rating" grade as well as an academic grade...<BR/><BR/>For me, as a motivated science student, grades were important but they weren't the point of my studies. I did the work required of me and I read/did extra what I thought was interesting. I didn't bother with memorisation for the sole purpose of passing exams...<BR/><BR/>Some people have to put in more effort than others and as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how much "effort" you put in, if you can't demonstrate that you actually understand the material, you shouldn't get an A.<BR/><BR/>I wonder what would happen if we didn't get grades at all. I wonder how many people would be motivated to study, just because they're genuinely interested in the subject material...?Sarah Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05914382090455332814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52734877948236602622009-02-23T14:11:00.000-06:002009-02-23T14:11:00.000-06:00"But sometimes I need more than a half hour to wri..."But sometimes I need more than a half hour to write an essay that gives justice to my thoughts and ideas, or to write an algorithm capable of solving a mathematical concept I am only mildly familiar with. It's unfair to place those kinds of time restraints when determining whether or not a student "knows" the material."<BR/><BR/>I would *love* to be able to give take-home tests. Unfortunately, that is even less fair than the standard testing protocol because you're effectively rewarding the fraction of the class that's willing to let Google/their brother/their friend/their tutor do their test for them.<BR/><BR/>So, for now, the best compromise I can make it to set a test in a timeslot that I consider far too long for it, and hope that that means everyone has sufficient time. (It also takes away the advantage that a small fraction of the class obtain by falsely claiming learning disability and obtaining extra time for that. I fully understand that there are students with genuine learning disabilities but, at our institution, there are also those who play the system.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17655529759952854122009-02-23T12:26:00.000-06:002009-02-23T12:26:00.000-06:00@Anonymous (just above): That was my real problem ...@Anonymous (just above): That was my real problem - the fact that he refused to help any of the students with the material. I was pissed because I could have and would have earned an A in the course if I had access to extra help, and that's where I "blame" the professor for the grade. <BR/><BR/>I was a willing, ambitious student who happened to also be going through a lot of personal shit at the time who did not want any special favors - just some one-on-one time during his office hours to go over the biochem nonsense that wasn't much beyond jibberish to me. <BR/><BR/>It certainly didn't actually ruin my gpa and was definitely not the end of the world. But you bet your ass that I am irked every time I look at my transcripts and see a lone, stupid B in a 100-level biology course.JLKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05396471022931966499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37001064346135845722009-02-23T11:12:00.000-06:002009-02-23T11:12:00.000-06:00JLK,I know it's nice to see that "perfect 4.0", bu...JLK,<BR/><BR/>I know it's nice to see that "perfect 4.0", but a little perspective is warranted here. I submit that getting a B in <EM>one</EM> course - when all the others are A's - does not "ruin" your GPA, and certainly isn't grounds for "almost having a heart attack". The world doesn't end if you get a B. Maybe more straight-A students should try it.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how you could have expected the prof to boost your grade; you may have had extenuating circumstances, but a prof can't just invent grades that you might have received if circumstances had been different. However, if I were the prof, I certainly would have tried to help you with the material. It's pretty sleazy to blow off sincere students like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50373213679203779292009-02-23T06:15:00.000-06:002009-02-23T06:15:00.000-06:00If effort and dedication were sufficient, the time...If effort and dedication were sufficient, the time and energy that my six-foot tall brother devoted to his jump shot in high school should have landed him the first string slot as center for the Boston Celtics.<BR/><BR/>For more than a decade, I taught at a fourth tier, state university in a state that often vies for fiftieth place in state by state education rankings. We gave out honors degrees like candy, and students who would have been average at a major state university in the west or north east were given highest honors. I regularly compared that "generosity" to the fact that only 10% of my classmates at a very selective liberal arts school were Phi Beta Kappa, and that in my last two years there, there was exactly one Summa Cum Laude graduate (roughly one quarter of one percent of those two years' seniors). Had I expected of my unnamed state university students anything near what my alma mater expected of my peers, I would have been at the heart of a firestorm of criticism in the student and local newspapers, and I would have had an unhappy audience with the president of the university. (He was shocked, shocked, when I once commented to him that students would be more successful if they more regularly attended classes.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78198896121506062282009-02-22T23:05:00.000-06:002009-02-22T23:05:00.000-06:00I completely agree that good grades require a cert...I completely agree that good grades require a certain level of comprehension and understanding of the subject matter. As a student, I can confess to feeling like my effort <I>should</I> be enough after spending an entire weekend studying for an exam I was barely able to pass. But ultimately, I understand that it's up to me to gauge my own understanding, and to seek help when I'm putting in more effort than I should be to grasp the material.<BR/><BR/>My real frustration lies with the fact that in many of my courses, the traditional methods for doling out grades - final exams worth 50% + - are incapable of testing my real knowledge of the subject. Sometimes I understand the material well enough to take an assignment home, think about it, and come up with the right approach/ answer, but I am just not capable of coming up with that answer in 30 seconds in an exam! It's one thing when you're asking me to take the derivative of an equation - with practice, it's the same method applied every time. But sometimes I need more than a half hour to write an essay that gives justice to my thoughts and ideas, or to write an algorithm capable of solving a mathematical concept I am only mildly familiar with. It's unfair to place those kinds of time restraints when determining whether or not a student "knows" the material.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57460648626323917672009-02-22T10:49:00.000-06:002009-02-22T10:49:00.000-06:00Well, of course they never got grades below an A o...Well, of course they never got grades below an A or B before. Grades in HS have no connection to reality; ditto for ones in some departments in a university. (One of my students complained about the final exam he had just taken in an Evergreen course where all of the students worked together on the questions. Sure would make grading easy!) <BR/><BR/>I blogged <A HREF="http://doctorpion.blogspot.com/2007/04/grade-13-at-ishkabibble-community.html" REL="nofollow">my thoughts about this some time ago</A>, so I won't repeat them here except to highlight the point Steve Zucker made to his JHU students: You were never taught at your level in HS. <BR/><BR/>If you meet the minimum requirements of the course, you earn a C and the right to take the next class in the sequence. If simply retaining what you needed to know to earn a "C" is not enough to pass the next class, special warnings are in order.Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44462121366643122182009-02-22T01:50:00.000-06:002009-02-22T01:50:00.000-06:00a made-up example: i) I am teaching civil engineer...a made-up example: <BR/>i) I am teaching civil engineering students the basics of bridge construction. <BR/>ii) I test them and one person took a wrong (statics) formula or wasn't able to fill in the right numbers or looked up a (material) factor wrong.<BR/>iii) this student got a bad mark, but as he showed up to the classes he gets an B<BR/>iv) this student gets a job because he got this good mark and he will construct bridges<BR/>v) guess what: he does the same mistake again in real-life! - and one bridge crashes<BR/>vi) now - despite nobody will kwow - I, as the teacher, will be responsible for that desaster. <BR/><BR/>My conclusion: Its better to mark worse than to raise notes - so the student really sees what he could have done wrong in real life.mentaerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06337822862621103715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62998809803699131172009-02-21T13:17:00.000-06:002009-02-21T13:17:00.000-06:00There's a (full, perhaps soon-to-be-ex) physics pr...There's a (full, perhaps soon-to-be-ex) physics prof at the University of Ottawa who quit giving his students grades.<BR/><BR/>http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090206.wprof06/BNStory/National/home<BR/><BR/>If that link expires, here's a less-good article:<BR/><BR/>http://www.thevarsity.ca/article/6463<BR/><BR/>I don't really like giving grades either. We have percentage grades here; I think that percentage grades report more information on performance than is available. But it would be an unwise career move for me to not give grades. Also they're also perhaps more important in an engineering department than a science department.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32110961823129581372009-02-20T15:30:00.000-06:002009-02-20T15:30:00.000-06:00I agree that we students can be a little fastidiou...I agree that we students can be a little fastidious when it comes to grading, but I would say that at least grading in the sciences is less biased than in the humanities. I took a writing course in my freshman year in college where the bulk of our grade would come from 3 essays written through the quarter. After my first paper, I realized that my writing was not that great and worked really hard to improve. By the last paper, the professor was saying that I was doing much better. Even though I knew that last paper wouldn't really change my grade, I thought I would have gotten a better grade than I did on the first 2 papers at least as a symbolic acknowledgement of my improvement, but my professor still gave me the same mediocre grade. I've had a really strong dislike for the humanities since then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-51501209587791012009-02-20T12:54:00.000-06:002009-02-20T12:54:00.000-06:00I am currently an undergraduate student, and I've ...I am currently an undergraduate student, and I've found that there are a lot of well-connected undergrads who have access to back-tests, solutions manuals, etc. These people have numerous worked-out examples to demonstrate concepts as well as an advantage on exams, simply because they know the kinds of questions to prepare for. I am a terrible test-taker; I freak out. However, I know the material and have done undergraduate research. When the focus is on grades, these people (who cheat) have an enormous advantage over a student like me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-47341572951636020662009-02-20T09:24:00.000-06:002009-02-20T09:24:00.000-06:00Thank you, thank you for pointing out that the art...Thank you, thank you for pointing out that the article itself was virtually incoherent. While the topic it presented was interesting, my brain almost exploded trying to follow the theme from beginning to end. Perhaps this is what happens when Journalism students anticipate As and Bs just for showing up and doing the minimum work, as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81074455587546848942009-02-20T04:10:00.000-06:002009-02-20T04:10:00.000-06:00I started writing a comment, but it turned in a po...I started writing a comment, but it turned in a post of its own, over at my place...<BR/><BR/>But just to add to the comments about professors not understanding/relating to the "average" student... if you're "average" your grades will (and should) probably reflect that. They won't be all As. Or probably even Bs. University/College/Academic education trains people for academic pursuits (like becoming a professor and teaching academic subjects). If you're not suited to academic pursuits you're probably in the wrong place/class. Instead, take on a career that doesn't require academic training.Jenn, PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12483866483313739708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83425096574650410642009-02-20T02:29:00.000-06:002009-02-20T02:29:00.000-06:00funny- i just wrote something slightly related, bu...funny- i just wrote something slightly related, but with the same title.<BR/><BR/>i'm a ta, and i agree. (and i agreed as an undergrad.)<BR/><BR/>as for effort vs quality ... it'd be great if students showed me they've learned to think, critically, instead of following the bare minimum in the outline i gave them. sometimes i feel like this either happens or doesn't, regardless of the amount of feedback given (or is there a better way to 'teach' it?). i've still gotten a few 'i did everything in the outline, don't i deserve an better grade?'... i don't even get very many questions on analysis - but if i told them exactly what was needed for every single lab, i would be doing most of the thinking for them.<BR/><BR/>i guess i'm agreeing with an opening quote in the article: the default grade is <I>not</I> an A.meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13869234653505064942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77883283660823109312009-02-19T23:57:00.000-06:002009-02-19T23:57:00.000-06:00Right with you on this one. There is also the arg...Right with you on this one. There is also the argument (like it is some sort of argument at all) that 'if you give me a poor grade I won't be able to get into medical school'. So? Don't get a poor grade.<BR/><BR/>Have you not seen this attitude at PhD level too? Granted there is supposed to be rigorous assessment in place, but a few too many people seem to think that starting a PhD and lasting the course means deserving the PhD. I agree it deserves something, it is very tortuous, but I've seen one too many people with PhDs who should never been awarded them.<BR/><BR/>As for the u/gs. They should try Britain. I'm not used to the North American system, it awards scores absolutely unattainable when I did my degree. I had a student come asking for position the other week saying they had an average over 95%, this is alien to me!Dr. Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04279062868061912332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3243524873479778482009-02-19T18:09:00.000-06:002009-02-19T18:09:00.000-06:00I've been a part-time undergrad for a kazillion ye...I've been a part-time undergrad for a kazillion years. (All right, actually about 10. Seriously.) The only time I ever complained about a grade was when a grader marked off an entire problem (out of 5 or so on the test) because I miscopied it with a minus sign (turning it into, actually, a far harder problem, which I then solved correctly). The professor was amenalbe to regrading it.<BR/><BR/>But I would never claim I should get a better grade because I worked so hard. First of all, I don't usually work that hard. But second of all, I guess I'd rather my professors think I'm smart than think I'm hard-working but not too bright.<BR/><BR/>But it's just obnoxious. I like to pretend to my profs that I actually do not care about the grade but just enjoy doing excellent work. And that is kind of true, although in fact I find myself pretty well motivated to get a high grade.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18079829842465164437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11484041626351888282009-02-19T18:05:00.000-06:002009-02-19T18:05:00.000-06:00I do have to admit that I did fall into the trap o...I do have to admit that I did fall into the trap of thinking that if I worked hard I should get a high grade and the fact that I've produced an amazing report on a project I did under all the sexism and male supremacy in Japan along with a fairly long period of demeaning manual labour before I could actually focus on the project I was given should also be taken into account. That was never taken into account as expected but I did churn out a pretty amazing thesis that got my industrial supervisor shining with pride and my personal tutor extremely hyper and enthusiastic...even if the writing was a bit on the iffy side. However, exams...not my strong point so I guess hard work and enthusiasm don't really pass for a good grade...hkukbilingualidiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09347011556987578563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48583637545032380062009-02-19T17:50:00.000-06:002009-02-19T17:50:00.000-06:00I like Laura's point, and it's something I forget ...I like Laura's point, and it's something I forget a lot: the average student is not much like the average professor was when he/she was in college. We can't assume they'll be motivated by the same things or have the same expectations. Most of us probably don't even know what it's like to work really hard at a course and fail it miserably; maybe that happened to us in one or two classes way outside our area of interest, but it obviously didn't happen systematically in many of our classes.<BR/><BR/>However, there is something some students do every semester that annoys and puzzles me: they show up to my office in the last week of class, or after grades have been turned in, and they proceed to sob and tell me how hard they worked and how much they care about their grade. Yet this is the first time I have seen them all semester. I announce my office hours regularly and encourage people to come talk to me. If you really cared about your grade, don't you think you'd come to the prof.'s office hours after the first D, or the second D, or the third and fourth? Why did they never try to find out what was going wrong, or ask for help understanding the material, or ask questions in class, or (in some cases) even show up to class? I simply cannot believe they actually care about the class material, nor do I believe they even care about their own grade. Caring implies acting. This is the kind of thing that wears me down and makes teaching very unpleasant. Fortunately, I only get this from a couple of students each semester, so it's not that bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38012402485922014932009-02-19T17:41:00.000-06:002009-02-19T17:41:00.000-06:00Dear FSP,What do you think about grade "curving"?D...Dear FSP,<BR/><BR/>What do you think about grade "curving"?<BR/><BR/>Do those relative grades actually measure students' comprehension? Is the "bell curve" assumption correct for university students?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-6335544472334194232009-02-19T17:39:00.000-06:002009-02-19T17:39:00.000-06:00I agree with Rose. I never whined about grades wh...I agree with Rose. I never whined about grades when I was a student, and it always annoyed me when the professors caved in and gave higher grades or extended deadlines for people who complained. So the dumb pushy guy gets the same grade that I earned? Nice! <BR/><BR/>Just state at the beginning of the term that the grades are non-negotiable. How is that so hard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91136604778578711502009-02-19T15:59:00.000-06:002009-02-19T15:59:00.000-06:00If students complaining about their grades did not...If students complaining about their grades did not result in better grades for them, I bet there would be a lot less complaining.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-88103281609926973642009-02-19T15:25:00.000-06:002009-02-19T15:25:00.000-06:00“I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a...<I>“I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a high grade,” [a student] said. “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”</I><BR/><BR/>Competence?<BR/><BR/>I wonder if this thinking works for professionals as well. Maybe try it when seeking tenure?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15874795138296220982009-02-19T15:18:00.000-06:002009-02-19T15:18:00.000-06:00I agree with the previous comment about a biased s...I agree with the previous comment about a biased sample. Professors were not average students and thus they have a hard time relating to the average student.<BR/><BR/>I think that grades and the grading process is largely mysterious to students. It doesn't feel systematic to them. It is worth noting that it really isn't very systematic. Different course have wildly different expectations of them. <BR/><BR/>Professors tend to have a strong internal sense of what it means to "master the material," and don't really understand that the students really, really don't share this intuition. Generally speaking, I believe that most university teachers would be better teachers if they were much more explicit about the standards of evaluation.yoliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05377530393720341372noreply@blogger.com