tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6698591550594965565..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Sexism-Driven ScienceFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15653854387915610602010-05-24T09:29:51.153-05:002010-05-24T09:29:51.153-05:00Read any given animal behaviour journal and you wi...Read any given animal behaviour journal and you will see just how sexist science really is. Females of any given animal are mere objects, while male behaviour is the only behaviour. The females are just seen as a tool to influence males.<br />Every journal starts with the male first, and science has grossly confused environmental influences (aka women told they're not good enough and harvesting only male talents) with genetics, as a pathetic excuse to justify women not being in science and maths much.<br />I believe that this case probably was sexism, because nearly all males get an ego bruising if any female whatsoever ever dares to out compete them or do a better job than them. Unless its cleaning or washing- then men act as though we're experts and the compliments come flooding in... Males expect to be better than female at absolutely everything just because they have a bigger body- there lies the problem.AnOnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-2938976859682059842009-08-09T21:40:16.197-05:002009-08-09T21:40:16.197-05:00I'm not a scientist nor a PhD. I am a woman th...I'm not a scientist nor a PhD. I am a woman though and a bit of a History buff.<br /><br />The world is going through some hefty socio-political changes. You can see them around you and read of them on your own ( iow, I don't need to detail it for anyone here ).<br /><br />I do believe when shifts in more's, manners, perspective, ideologies, etc etc change in a kind of extreme from previous attitudes, there's a period of resistance. We may even see *increasing* hostility to women from men before any changes in thinking kind of stick and become the general mode of behavior.<br /><br />Women have come a long way and - this might be more important to women - so have men. Yes, the Old Guard still exists. Yes, religion still has its way on the male and female mind. When both genders are going through big shifts in attitude, I think there's a brief, ( brief possibly being ten years or more for instance - I'm being very general here ), movement of resistance to the change. I believe that's why we see, in certain groups of young males, a popularizing of sexist behavior. Which makes terrific copy btw. The males who are *not* sexist are not as interesting, so to speak, to viewers/readers.<br /><br />But...I think entrenched attitudes *will* evolve, and do. Which is why it's so important for women to not allow sexist attitudes/behaviors to redirect our focus from our own objectives and waste time fighting/arguing with those who exhibit them. If, as individuals, we reward the behaviors we find acceptable and ignore those we do not, ( though I'm in no way suggesting that 'ignore' means passively condone nor ignore to the point that we don't vote on laws etc to protect womens rights ). So, I think it's terrific that you find the archaic attitudes of your associates funny and mildly amusing versus allowing them to distract your energies into telling them how wrong they are. They already know it. <br /><br />Wether you wish it to be so or not, in many ways you are carrying on and carrying forward, and contributing to the eventual death of sexist nonsense - illogical behaviors - for future generations of women. I'm sorry if that sounds superficial in any way or too cheery. Obviously, your first concern should be for yourself and your work. But it's really important that young women, heck, all women, know that science disciplines are for everyone. Everyone. All humans beings. Not just the male human beings. <br /><br />It might take a while before we see films and stories and shows and such where the heroic female scientist is the norm, instead of the once in a decade anecdotal story, but it will happen. It will change. And the men in science now can either say they were part of the positive change, or part of the resistance to change. That's on them to decide and live with.Angelanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80500837811386154652008-10-14T11:35:00.000-05:002008-10-14T11:35:00.000-05:00"Stop complaining"? Come on, Anon, tell us how you..."Stop complaining"? Come on, Anon, tell us how you really feel. Don't you mean "Shut up or get back in the kitchen"?<BR/><BR/>Complaining raises awareness, which raises concern, which maybe pressures people to stop acting like this. Complaining, at least when it comes to things like sexism, racism, etc., is a GOOD thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79704194880156336882008-07-17T06:22:00.000-05:002008-07-17T06:22:00.000-05:00Stop complaining. If you don't like it then get ou...Stop complaining. If you don't like it then get out. No one forces you into science.<BR/><BR/>I do theoretical physics - some of it gets published in peer journals, some of it does not. That's the way it goes. Oh, and I do not get paid for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22199131505327841852008-06-07T12:52:00.000-05:002008-06-07T12:52:00.000-05:00based on your post I think::1. Just having your ti...based on your post I think:<BR/><BR/>:<BR/><BR/>1. Just having your time to spend time on this minor issues indicate to me that you may be extremely good and have lot of free time. But let me think, if you are that good then you would be spending more time to get new discoveries. Why are you wasting you time. <BR/><BR/>2. You are over reacting. Even in all male situation, it always happen that some one or some group does not like your idea.<BR/><BR/>3. Even you are a science professor, you are still not confident enough. If you were confident, you would not waste your time thinking what other people think about your research. Just keep on publishing and let the world decide. sooner or later, you will prove yourself. Impact factor is important, but getting your ideas out is also important, since history will be the judge.<BR/><BR/>4. if you believe someone is stealing your ideas, you can take action. This is nothing new. I know one faculty suing a senior professor and winning the case.<BR/><BR/>5. I have seen excellent female faculties and I feel Marie Curie... is a god-like to me. So, being a male scientist I have nothing against female. Even my wife has a PhD. So get a life and do you research.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40193810944213759482008-05-28T15:18:00.000-05:002008-05-28T15:18:00.000-05:00Eh... I'm pretty sure I'm sexist and probably raci...Eh... I'm pretty sure I'm sexist and probably racist too. Everyone is, they've got some prejudices hidden away. I don't really care when it's minor though. And it's not something that bothers me. I try to treat others exactly the same, as human beings and try to stamp out prejudice in me when I notice it if it effects others adversely. <BR/><BR/>I'm still really disappointed when somebody from my race commits a crime or is a failure. I'm pretty sure it's racist to feel that way somehow, but I don't really care. I also prefer the company of men when in a bar and I'm not going to change it. In the lab though, I'm mindful not to prefer anyone.<BR/><BR/>This post was kind of helpful. If I ever act this way to a female colleague, I'll stop and think why I'm doing it. Not that I would act like such a douchebag that was described in this post. I don't think...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-90275869924043860612008-05-28T10:38:00.000-05:002008-05-28T10:38:00.000-05:00Helen, in this case, because the accusation is a p...<I>Helen, in this case, because the accusation is a pretty serious one,</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, that old meme. That one's so old and tired it's got mushrooms growing out of it. <BR/><BR/>Reality: Sexism is everywhere, in every single person in our society, because it is that deeply woven into the fabric of our society. <BR/><BR/>Tired Old Meme: Sexism is a scare word (note okham's love of the scare quotes) that tries to tar Utterly Innocent and Pure Men with the sins of a pathological very few. Sexism only comes from a very few freaks, so how dare anyone even suggest that someone might be a pathological freak, when he might just be an Utterly Innocent and Pure Man? <BR/><BR/>Pretended purpose of Tired Old Meme: Protecting the innocent from calumny.<BR/><BR/>Actual purpose of Tired Old Meme: Silence is key to the current methods of propagation of sexism, <BR/>because when women start talking to each other, they realize that none of them have been dealing with a few isolated freaks, but a society-wide endemic problem. We can't have that, so any discussion of what women go through must be silenced. Even something so innocuous as an anecdote online stripped of all identifying information cannot be allowed. <BR/><BR/><I>...snip..</I><BR/><BR/>More Tired Old Meme justifications. This guy has a lot of them. They all boil down to the same thing -- can't have women talking about what actually happens to them, even when they're as extremely mild-mannered about it as FSP. <BR/><BR/><I>Seriously, does it always have to be sexism when situations like this happen? </I><BR/><BR/>This Tired Old Meme justification is particularly funny, since anyone who's read FSP in depth knows the "always have to be sexism" notion is insanely far from reality, and our Tired Old Meme defender is really reaching here. Hint for those who want the short course: Did you read the post she links to?<BR/><BR/><I>Is there no room for any reasonable doubt?</I><BR/><BR/>We can't have those women stating opinions about what happens to them! They're SUPPOSED to always state the caveat that they might be wrong. Simply stating opinions without subservient caveats is FOR MEN ONLY don't you know. <BR/><BR/><I>FSP, you shouldn't care about what other people think or say about your work. If you are confident your work is good then they kiss your.... At the end all that matters is that you do what you like to do and you do it the best you can, the rest it's just noise.</I><BR/><BR/>Because endemic sexism isn't anything with real consequences, little lady, no matter how many studies prove otherwise, so go run along.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83700559618950172402008-05-28T08:26:00.000-05:002008-05-28T08:26:00.000-05:00"Um, can't you read? This is a blog. The entry was..."Um, can't you read? This is a blog. The entry was an anecdote, not a submission of a proof or a conclusive set of evidence."<BR/><BR/>Helen, in this case, because the accusation is a pretty serious one, I agree with Okham and I think that a) more evidence is needed to assertively state sexism, or b) one should leave room for other possibilities. In my opinion FSP didn't do either one of them. Comments like this, whether true or not, with little support information give rise to bigger problems than they solve, precisely because people than cannot fall into the same category as the commenter (in this case being male is one possibility) can come up with 1000 different, less serious, reasons why the same thing happens to them. <BR/><BR/>Seriously, does it always have to be sexism when situations like this happen? Is there no room for any reasonable doubt?<BR/><BR/>FSP, you shouldn't care about what other people think or say about your work. If you are confident your work is good then they kiss your.... At the end all that matters is that you do what you like to do and you do it the best you can, the rest it's just noise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17524732181492256732008-05-27T21:55:00.000-05:002008-05-27T21:55:00.000-05:00PhysioProf is objectively much handsomer than Okha...<I>PhysioProf is objectively much handsomer than Okham</I><BR/><BR/>Bull-shitsky ! I say we settle this right here, right now... shall we ask... er.... uh... <BR/>OK, maybe that is not such a great idea. Let's move it to another blog, what do you say ? How 'bout baldmen.com ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53852535588981378722008-05-27T20:18:00.000-05:002008-05-27T20:18:00.000-05:00PhysioProf is objectively much handsomer than Okha...PhysioProf is objectively much handsomer than Okham.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-588226196817270912008-05-27T17:26:00.000-05:002008-05-27T17:26:00.000-05:00Coming in at the end again, FSP, and this time I t...Coming in at the end again, FSP, and this time I totally agree with you. The chronicle has an article about the "predatory and demeaning" environment in STEM subjects. It requires women to have a thick skin and tends to drive young women away unless they are super-super-stars. I do frequently get the respect I deserve for my research record, but its hard being the only female speaker at specialty conferences (besides female graduate students, who all seem to drop off in a few years) and see my ideas stolen with no credit given for being the first to publish on the topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-46239236113841860682008-05-27T16:04:00.000-05:002008-05-27T16:04:00.000-05:00"I'm not trying to offend anyone but a good scient..."I'm not trying to offend anyone but a good scientist would not reach the conclusions that she did with just the evidence that she presented."<BR/><BR/>Um, can't you read? This is a blog. The entry was an anecdote, not a submission of a proof or a conclusive set of evidence. The nature of the blog requires that the bulk of the evidence will not be presented here. None of what you're saying makes the least sense in this circumstance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78359058569836308302008-05-27T16:01:00.000-05:002008-05-27T16:01:00.000-05:00Okham, you've been arguing all along that FSP's st...Okham, you've been arguing all along that FSP's statement of opinion as to the motivation of the behavior she reported is not valid unless it fits your personal criteria for validity. That is saying she needs your opinion. She doesn't. <BR/><BR/>Since you still seem to be in toddler-mode (Mommy! Someone called me a troll! Oh wait, no one called me a troll, but I want to yell!), I don't expect you to get that, however.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70681959933951534172008-05-27T14:41:00.000-05:002008-05-27T14:41:00.000-05:00It just goes against the stereotype of scientists ...<I>It just goes against the stereotype of scientists as dispassionate truth-seekers.</I><BR/><BR/>In my admittedly limited experience, most of what goes on in academia goes against that stereotype.<BR/><BR/>I agree that FSP is (a) not obligated to spill concrete details regarding why she feels sexism is at work here and (b) allowed to say whatever she wants on her pseudonymous blog. But I also agree that so far these comments have given Okham a lot of fodder in terms of name-calling, which makes us look bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54922797653108769542008-05-27T14:32:00.000-05:002008-05-27T14:32:00.000-05:00I'm with okham here. The evidence that FSP presen...I'm with okham here. The evidence that FSP presented is not enough to jump to the conclusion that these other scientists are sexist. Also, saying that other scientists disagree with someone's work because they are sexist is a pretty serious accusation and those sorts of accusations should not be thrown around lightly. Especially, I think, by scientists that should hold themselves to higher standards of proof and judgement. I just have to say that unless there's some hidden evidence that she is keeping from us and going after people that disagree with the conclusions that are made doesn't make them sexist themselves. There could be other reasons these people were motivated to come after her, and a good scientist would not dismiss them. I'm not trying to offend anyone but a good scientist would not reach the conclusions that she did with just the evidence that she presented.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-88209344198483961372008-05-27T13:54:00.000-05:002008-05-27T13:54:00.000-05:00I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but this ...<I>I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but this kind of concern trolling is nothing new for him. He does it on others' blogs as well as his own.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh for chrissake, PhysioProf, get over it. So what if I am better looking than you, there is more to life than just looks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78664794936551559802008-05-27T13:36:00.000-05:002008-05-27T13:36:00.000-05:00This comment thread has been good for a chuckle. I...<I>This comment thread has been good for a chuckle. I'm not sure what Okham et al are getting so emotional about. </I><BR/><BR/>Helen, I am reading the comments. I have been called "a troll" (apparently I even "troll" on my own blog...) , "part of the problem", someone has implied that I give her ulcers and suggested that my comments should be deleted.<BR/>And all of this in response to what ? <BR/>I just expressed an opinion... I thought this is what comments are for, and in fact I can see that some people agree with me. I honestly don't think I have been disrespectful to anyone, and I certainly never suggested that anyone should get my permission from me for anything.<BR/>What did I say that is so offensive ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80065882514994256722008-05-27T13:05:00.000-05:002008-05-27T13:05:00.000-05:00Ah, the old 'is it really sexism' debate. Unfortu...Ah, the old 'is it really sexism' debate. Unfortunately the probability is high that it is at least partially related to her being female. That's because, as someone else mentioned, succesful high profile researchers are often the target of jealousy and politics, but when that person dares to be a WOMAN (!!) then she really needs to be put in her place. I've seen this dynamic when beating men at billiards. If you want to know who is a 'real' man or not, just see how they handle getting beat by a woman at a game.<BR/><BR/>In any case, Machiavelli pointed out that if you can't be loved, be feared. So continue putting the fear of God, and of you, into these people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82776761082388125142008-05-27T11:27:00.000-05:002008-05-27T11:27:00.000-05:00This comment thread has been good for a chuckle. ...This comment thread has been good for a chuckle. I'm not sure what Okham et al are getting so emotional about. <BR/><BR/>The funniest part is the whole theme of demanding that a fairly calm and dispassionate blogger should seek the opinion of random internet strangers in order to post an opinion. It's kind of like a toddler screaming at the sky for raining. Cute in a 2-year-old, bemusing in anyone else.<BR/><BR/>"I don't see the sexism" -- well, so what? This is a pseudonyminous blog, and it's very clear from that context that the circumstantial evidence posted is whatever small subset fits with that. No, all the evidence will not be given you, and you're being just plain silly, not to mention unethical, if you think it should be.<BR/><BR/>FSP stated her opinion. If you think an alternative explanation could work, tossing it into the mix is great. Trying to demand that FSP get your permission to state her opinion is absurd. Those of us who've read her blog while having lived the unspoken subtext ourselves know she's almost bizarrely mild-mannered about the things she describes. Those who do the "you just want to see sexims" toddler anti-rain dance aren't operating from a rational framework anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64740948432496977942008-05-27T09:54:00.000-05:002008-05-27T09:54:00.000-05:00PS:Although I think that it's difficult to tell wh...PS:<BR/><BR/>Although I think that it's difficult to tell whether sexism motivates the antagonism here, I would suggest that's another burden female scientists carry (especially those who have experience explicit sexism) -- to worry about whether the antagonism is motivated by their gender.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26355956129901249572008-05-27T09:51:00.000-05:002008-05-27T09:51:00.000-05:00"it is definitely ubiquitous that certain members ..."it is definitely ubiquitous that certain members of any given community arouse surprising levels of rage in others."<BR/><BR/>Sometimes this is because of their success, but sometimes it's because they do shoddy, sloppy work that litters the field, and hurts the field. (Not FSP, of course, and her descriptions of what follows when people follow-up on the work shows that). It's part of what happens in a new field as it matures -- the early entrants do do "sloppy" work because it's exploratory, and the techniques are new. But, at some point, as the field matures, the work needs to be cleaned up. Some of the early folks never clean up their act, but still have enough clout to keep going. <BR/><BR/>The answer, is, as a junior scientist (one who I expect to be both successful & solid) said to me "to drive out the bad work with good work. " <BR/><BR/>Your opponents seem to be trying to drive out the good work with bad work, and fortunately, although it's plenty difficult to drive out the bad work, it's much harder to drive out the good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12443557071749935802008-05-27T08:45:00.000-05:002008-05-27T08:45:00.000-05:00I would encourage you to consider deleting some o...<I>I would encourage you to consider deleting some of these comments when they get to be ulcerific.</I><BR/><BR/>Ms PhD -- For my part, I hope you keep writing whatever you please, wherever you want. No matter how questionable and out of line I find much of what you write, I pledge to you that I shall <I>never</I> ask or suggest to anyone that your comments should be deleted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-67636908781563888552008-05-27T07:14:00.000-05:002008-05-27T07:14:00.000-05:00Oh look, Okham has taken up concern trolling.I don...<I>Oh look, Okham has taken up concern trolling.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but this kind of concern trolling is nothing new for him. <A HREF="http://scienceblogs.com/drugmonkey/2008/04/conference_presentations_and_c.php" REL="nofollow">He does it on others' blogs as well as his own.</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-65099989544074346922008-05-27T05:31:00.000-05:002008-05-27T05:31:00.000-05:00I'm not real keen on Helen's tone with okham, eith...I'm not real keen on Helen's tone with okham, either. I'm certainly an outright feminist, and fairly convinced by FSP's example, but I recognize the right of others to disagree with her analysis.<BR/><BR/>Might I offer a possibility for reconciliation by suggesting that the "personal antagonism" that FSP has picked up on, is in part fueled by a covert level of sexism in these particular men who don't like her (as opposed to her work)? And that there are many other possible reasons for such personal antagonism, which means that men are certainly going to run into such unfair behavior as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-90408292042369409432008-05-27T02:21:00.000-05:002008-05-27T02:21:00.000-05:00Perhaps there are details that you are not providi...Perhaps there are details that you are not providing (and can not provide) that would back the example you gave? <BR/><BR/>I have no doubt there is sexism in STEM fields. I have been told many times "You got this job because you're a women... you're research is cute... etc." I've also received "wow, this is fascinating work... exactly what we need..." My CV and the quality of my work can speak for itself. <BR/><BR/>Science should be about the science. Unfortunately, traditional gender roles do seem to get in the way for thick headed morons. Luckily, they are getting fewer.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828369235296366958noreply@blogger.com