tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post712851276709991882..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: iCollege U?Female Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37698277910862095302010-06-17T15:01:43.023-05:002010-06-17T15:01:43.023-05:00It doesn't matter whether you think of the stu...It doesn't matter whether you think of the student as a consumer or a worker. Lets suppose they are workers. The same arguments I've made above still hold. Should workers not be seek out better opportunities from employers should they arise? Is it undesirable that construction workers take jobs where they digs ditches with heavy machinery instead of with shovels? Is it undesirable that construction companies who insist on using shovels instead of heavy machinery have been weeded out through competition?Mark N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82731584372696651292010-06-16T16:20:43.319-05:002010-06-16T16:20:43.319-05:00You must read Michael Berube on this. It is extrem...You must read Michael Berube on this. It is extremely funny and on target:<br /><br />http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/comments/special_announcement/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-88272284753634357712010-06-16T16:20:43.318-05:002010-06-16T16:20:43.318-05:00FSP, another great post. If I never hear another A...FSP, another great post. If I never hear another Administrator say "students are consumers" it will be too early!<br /><br />As an Asst Prof (in, well, you can see my name above) I have experience in teaching both online and in person classes. I like the in person ones so much better as I can gauge student's learning in real time. Online, students tend to hide behind their supposed anonymity and opinions. You would not believe some of the emails I get in my online courses! I realize, of course, that these courses are great for students on the run, who have family and work obligations, and can't get to the campus. Fine. We have a supported minor online! But to be a major, you need to take in person classes. Why? Part of college is socialization with the community, with other students, and with me, as well as with the literature and ways of doing research in our discipline! Additionally, evolution is a tricky subject and I prefer to handle it in person rather than online. Of course the university system will change, but we need to figure out what is important about the college experience. Costs AND benefits.AnthroBabenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30687265285724342592010-06-16T16:18:41.206-05:002010-06-16T16:18:41.206-05:00"Since WWII, the number of profs has soared, ..."Since WWII, the number of profs has soared, the cost of tuition has soared, and the basic coursework in an undergraduate degree has stayed fairly steady. ."<br />First, actual numbers will show that support staff, student resources, and above all administrations have exploded. The number of tenure/tenure-track professors per student has decreased. <br />Second, the other actual research that has been done is about the burden of payment. Under Reagan education went from a shared public good (consumer being the public, democracy, larger tax base etc.) to the student purchasing a private good. This ideological shift means students must pay for their own educations. Basically, the boomer climbed up the education ladder and then pulled it up after them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40138887037381179622010-06-16T09:00:31.128-05:002010-06-16T09:00:31.128-05:00I know I am late to this discussion - but in terms...I know I am late to this discussion - but in terms of online classes, I think that the college experience is more than the sum of the classes.<br /><br />I explain that in a little more detail here:<br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/dotphysics/2010/02/college_is_uranium_online_lear.php" rel="nofollow">College is like uranium</a>rallainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12956503928971828628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53038538250386915062010-06-15T20:48:13.027-05:002010-06-15T20:48:13.027-05:00For what it's worth, I have had experience wit...For what it's worth, I have had experience with both traditional university, community college and online coursework. I completed a master's degree from a large state university. Years (and husband and 2 children) later, I am switching careers and getting a nursing degree. <br /><br />Because I had a baby in the middle of this grand adventure, I took a few prerequisites online. I find online classes to be next to useless. Both courses I took followed the "read a few chapters, take an exam" format. Frankly, I could have taken the online exams by using the textbook's index and looking up keywords. Until and unless online courses can mimic the question/answer and practical application you get from a traditional course, a degree from an online university is essentially a degree in being able to look things up. I can't imagine actually learning a complicated subject like calculus, engineering or medicine in the online format I've experienced. Perhaps universities do have to change, but first they have to find a model that actually works as well as a traditional one.Jubehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008939722667534291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50083467052129302732010-06-15T08:43:49.756-05:002010-06-15T08:43:49.756-05:00Also I would like to add that STUDENTS would not w...Also I would like to add that STUDENTS would not want to go to a university that gave everyone perfect grades all the time. How much do you think their degree from that institution would be worth? Students want credibility. They WANT to signal their abilities to employers.<br /><br />And 1:03 Anonymous: Saying "the community is the customer" is a great way of saying that university institutions are accountable to no one. If the community is the customer, lets ask the community what she thinks of the state of higher education.Mark N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32821884214034230722010-06-15T08:37:55.488-05:002010-06-15T08:37:55.488-05:00I'm a little bit curious why so many people on...I'm a little bit curious why so many people on this discussion board are so hostile to the prospect of any kind of significant change in higher education. <br /><br />Many of you seem to be arguing against the straw man that university professors should be eliminated and there should be no interaction between student and teacher. I honestly have not heard any of this governors arguments, but I doubt he is taking an extreme position like that. At the very least, that is not the position I'm taking.<br /><br />It just seems that many things that go on in a university could be done in a much more efficient and effective way, particularly in the undergraduate education arena. I'm sure there are plenty of possible models, but one I have thought about a lot is the following: no lectures, (or video lectures, if possible) combined with a textbook and readings, of course there could be assigments/tests as necessary. In addition to this, the professor can be contacted through email and holds office hours, along with a couple of TAs. <br /><br />This allows for interaction between student and teacher. It seems like there could also be ways of introducing student groups so students can communicate with each other about the material. Have some imagination people! None of this implies that the education would be about rote memorization, and none of it implies that "all students learn the same". <br /><br />I agree that this would probably not work for ALL undergraduate courses. However, this would have been a much better model for any of the courses I took as an undergraduate (Upper level Math/Econ, Statistics, Computer Science). I recognize that there is more to a university than undergraduate education, including research, training researchers and teaching advanced courses that are on the frontier of knowledge in a particular field. I agree that the model that I'm talking about could probably not be applied in these areas. <br /><br />I personally think that changes are inevitable in this area. Some better option for students will come along, and they will take it. The benefits will be so great that no deeply entrenched special interests (including I think many people in this comments section) will be able to stop it. Ice men were put out of business because the refrigerator was so much better for consumers. Same thing happened with cassette tapes and buggy whips, and personally I think the same thing will happen for undergraduate education.Mark N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91142515435402114852010-06-15T05:03:40.503-05:002010-06-15T05:03:40.503-05:00personally, i learn by interaction; either with in...personally, i learn by interaction; either with interested people or with the responsibility of the job. i'm afraid traditional classes bore me silly. during my years as a student i found two and only two professors who could hold my interest by talking.<br />later i worked 40 years in medicine, same principle applied. interested collegues and patients one the one hand, checking things out theoretically as a dialogue with responsiblity for each and every patient, for systematic primary prevention programs, for public health aspects, for my own further aducation. plus.<br />downloads are not interactive.<br />presidential candidates seem interactive, but are not, i'm afraid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9888988836282238152010-06-15T01:03:38.346-05:002010-06-15T01:03:38.346-05:00Ahhh, "the student is the customer" ol&#...Ahhh, "the student is the customer" ol' chestnut. I've heard it before.<br /><br />Truthfully, the community is the customer. The product is the education, which is different to the course material. That's why we don't let the students grade themselves. <br /><br />The fact that the students are paying for the education is an oddity (go socialism!) but it does not make them the customer.Pre Post Docnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33660193492708090382010-06-14T23:05:42.158-05:002010-06-14T23:05:42.158-05:00I've seen this speculation before, that intern...I've seen this speculation before, that internet resources are going to replace brick-and-mortar educations any day now. It's absurd. Public libraries have been around for ages, open courseware has been available for several years now, and very few people dedicate the time and effort to learning the equivalent of an undergraduate degree from those resources. <br /><br />I think that classroom interaction is important for many of the reasons that have already been listed in the post and comments, but that is not the only reason people pay to be taught things they could learn for free from the internet. <br /><br />Without outside evaluation, it can be difficult to judge one's own grasp of a body of material, and more importantly, you may well have mastered that material but I have no proof of that. Grades serve as a certification of sorts that you've understood this subject quite well and at least muddled through that one. And people tend to learn more when they are being evaluated, which is why many graduate programs feature a qualifying exam that is supposed to force the students to synthesize the important knowledge of their field. <br /><br />On a similar note, earning a diploma is shorthand for completing x number of courses, but also indicates a somewhat coherent course of study -- i.e., you have had to see most of the basic material in your major field, take math and writing and history courses, maybe study a foreign language, etc etc.<br /><br />This structured approach to education -- you need to take xyz courses to get a degree in chemistry, you need to write abc papers due on such and so dates to pass your lit class, etc -- also makes it easier to work your way through such a large body of knowledge. (I've heard several times that science grad students should avoid taking non-required courses unless they don't have the discipline to learn the material in question on their own, implying that one of the main points of the courses is to organize things for you.)<br /><br />And of course, as long as a diploma from MIT has more cachet than the claim to have studied the same material from their OpenCourseWare site, there will be a market for at least the very selective degree programs.adaggernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52452719423349063012010-06-14T22:55:46.584-05:002010-06-14T22:55:46.584-05:00JohnV, even if you were correct about research-foc...JohnV, even if you were correct about research-focused profs (something that, even in the upper echelons, doesn't hold true across all disciplines), your hypothetical "highest-paid professors" are a tiny minority of the professors out there. Constructing broad-reaching public policy based on the exception, rather than the rule, is not smart.<br /><br />And "cost" can be measured in many ways, and always must be weighed against benefits.<br /><br />Again, I call strawman on Pawlenty's statements.Notorious Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08700875559325201086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-92654666066879842010-06-14T20:41:09.695-05:002010-06-14T20:41:09.695-05:00FrauTech - In Minneapolis/St Paul you don't ha...FrauTech - In Minneapolis/St Paul you don't have to live too far away to have a 30 minute commute (ugh, Traffic). Many students at Univ MN live on campus but many do not...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62297164294757834202010-06-14T19:01:51.797-05:002010-06-14T19:01:51.797-05:00With response to FrauTech:
University of Minnesot...With response to FrauTech:<br /><br />University of Minnesota is primarily a commuter campus, there are not enough dorms or residences around the campus to support the student population. As a graduate student at UMN, I'd also say there is one side of campus that no single female would want to live on due to rampant crime issues.<br /><br /> In order to live off my crappy grad student pay (when I was there, I'm currently dissertating in absentia), I lived a good half hour to 45 minute commute away from school when I had to walk a mile to the light rail, then deal with the light rail and then wait for a bus to get to campus (because otherwise the light rail to school walk would take me through the unsafe part of town). I know most of the undergrads in our dept traveled about an hour- they're take an express bus from Burnsville (the south side of the cities) into downtown and then to campus. Other "hip" and thus affordable places to live in the Twin Cities include Uptown in Minneapolis (a min 20 minute bus ride to the U) or Grand Ave in Saint Paul which involves multiple bus transfers. In part people live far away because a) it's cheaper b) the university has cheap bus passes thanks to fees all students are charged and c) most of the residences around the campus aren't legal for more than 3 non related people to live in (so the 5 bedroom houses? Illegal for 5 unrelated people to live in).<br /><br />Admittedly the Institute of Technology is planning on pissing away a couple million dollars as part of their "rebranding" into the College of Science and Engineering, so UMN does piss away money on completely stupid stuff at times. I'd have more respect for Pawlenty if he could have directly addressed that as ways the university needs to learn to save money and pull their heads out of their respective rectal cavities.Erinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54598801099216259102010-06-14T18:54:59.686-05:002010-06-14T18:54:59.686-05:00I notice a lot of arguments here about the value o...I notice a lot of arguments here about the value of personal classroom education by state-of-the-art researchers completely devoid of any cost estimate.<br /><br />Also, posts ignoring the fact that the highest paid of the faculty spend precious little if any of their time in classrooms with the undergraduates, which are often left to the grad TAs with little formal teaching training.<br /><br />We can sometimes justify our comfortable, job-for-life positions, but these posts are not making a good case to me.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-39534497261883655752010-06-14T17:23:16.612-05:002010-06-14T17:23:16.612-05:00Teaching is so important and teaching well is incr...Teaching is so important and teaching well is incredibly difficult. The Governor's comments speak to a national sentiment that undermines the teaching profession. I doubt that FemaleScienceProfessor doesn't recognize that there is definite room for improvement in the Educational system, but she does make a valid point that the end goal of education isn't about making everything easy and stress free for the student. The Governor supports an Educational philosophy where (i) all students learn the same, (ii) no interaction is necessary for education and (iii) teachers do the majority of the work for their students. Most educational researchers would vehemently argue against points (i) and (ii). Regarding (iii), Teaching at a college level is already incredibly demanding of the research professor - who in many cases bends over backwards to assist students.<br /><br />I'm currently preparing to teach my first class as a 3rd year graduate student after being a teaching assistant for 4 lab based classes at the graduate/undergraduate level and mentoring youth/developing classroom activities at elementary and high school levels. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with FSP on all of her points regarding how disturbing the Governor's philosophy on Education are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62963319136275474862010-06-14T15:12:40.530-05:002010-06-14T15:12:40.530-05:00Students don't automatically prefer online cou...Students don't automatically prefer online courses; some, in fact, realize that they're getting less in this format:<br /><br />http://www.thecurrentonline.com/2.14134/i-could-have-gone-to-the-university-of-phoenix-1.1960634<br /><br />Pawlenty may or may not be ignorant of what actually goes on in a university classroom; I don't know. What seems more likely is that he is counting on his constituents not knowing, and using a strawman (cushy jobs, checked out, coasting, boring) to construct a scapegoat for the state's budget problems.Notorious Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08700875559325201086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18126960455126342682010-06-14T13:34:10.098-05:002010-06-14T13:34:10.098-05:00Let's not forget that professors and universit...Let's not forget that professors and universities are not only about teaching students, they are also about *evaluating* students. A few other commenters have touched on this point. Sure, students can go learn calculus on the internet and put a line on their resume that they can do calculus like a mo-fo, but do we just want to trust them on that? This discussion reminds me of the line in "Good Will Hunting" where Will makes fun of the Harvard guy for paying a half million dollars for an education he could've gotten for $1.99 at the public library.<br /><br />And, as has been mentioned, the community and networking developed during college is perhaps just as important as the classroom education. The stats for getting a job definitely support the whole "it's who you know" adage. Not that you get hired by your buddies, but that people like to hire people who come with a recommendation they can trust.<br /> <br />True, online courses are a different beast from simply teaching yourself from a book or the internet. An online course does have exams and means of evaluating the student. And I think it's wonderful that these courses have become available for people who may need a more flexible learning environment because they're working and/or dealing with family commitments. But, I don't think you can replace the learning community and networking opportunities available at a real, physical college campus.SamanthaScientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07523530309971427206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-61300872958929544602010-06-14T13:28:45.372-05:002010-06-14T13:28:45.372-05:00I think there is one important point that's mi...I think there is one important point that's missing here, by going to lectures you are almost guaranteed that what you learned are the most up to date and fresh-out-of-the-oven so to speak. In the hardest modules I took for catalytical syntheses for my chemistry degree, it was pretty much recently discovered stuff that my prof were dishing out every lecture. In addition, if it wasn't for the 'laborious' lectures that we take c. 3/4 years we probably wouldn't have developed the skills needed for when we go to conferences and stuff. How often do you think you will get to hear the same talk twice, especially when it sometimes are about a loosely-connected but highly useful subject!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75736642210321291842010-06-14T13:22:47.134-05:002010-06-14T13:22:47.134-05:00I also went to the U of minn for my graduate studi...I also went to the U of minn for my graduate studies. I would be happy to vote for Pawlenty for president if he put a good post-tenure review in place and let go of the many underperforming professors at the university (including my old adviser), I estimate they could put about 30 million into the budget if they do this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77705563344005393862010-06-14T12:46:32.984-05:002010-06-14T12:46:32.984-05:00Here is one example of an iCollege graduate: We re...Here is one example of an iCollege graduate: We recently hired a handiman who told me that his "hobby" is physics. Never learned it in college or anything so bothersome. He had a grand unified theory all worked out. He told me all about it: all you need is an ether! <br /><br />I asked him if he ever tried publishing his ideas. "Oh, these people expect you to have studied this stuff in college," was his response. <br /><br />I rest my case.Eilathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04385916134242030549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79569111040588788842010-06-14T11:45:51.271-05:002010-06-14T11:45:51.271-05:00The governor presented the extreme point of view t...The governor presented the extreme point of view that it's a waste of time and money for students to go to campus, and that universities present only one mode of instruction. The post presents the point of view that some aspects of the depiction of boring instructors and lack of choice about course scheduling/content are obnoxious and incorrect. I think you have to read between the lines quite a lot to see in the post a sense of entitlement, a lack of understanding that working students have a difficult time, or a call for universities to remain exactly as they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-45578333195707723452010-06-14T11:39:48.356-05:002010-06-14T11:39:48.356-05:00Who exactly does Mr. Pawlenty think will be teachi...Who exactly does Mr. Pawlenty think will be teaching these classes? I suppose the author of "Economy for Dummies" can be hired. Come to think of it, why not scrap college entirely. I can learn Econ 101 from a "for Dummies" book (or an "Idiots Guide" -- the market is competitive!). No tests, no hassle! And no one has to verify that I understood or learned or absorbed anything. <br />I have even seen such a book on quantum physics. Hilarious!<br /><br />On a more serious note, though, the thought that the expertise and deep knowledge provided by professors can be easily substituted by an iPad app is insulting, short sighted, and IGNORANT.Eilathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04385916134242030549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13500486788765308632010-06-14T11:24:09.825-05:002010-06-14T11:24:09.825-05:00Wait, what students are driving to school 30 minut...Wait, what students are driving to school 30 minutes from the suburbs? Most students I know (traditional) live five minutes from campus max. It's the non-traditional students who are already making the sacrifices who drive 30 minutes from the suburbs. And the fact that they are choosing that education instead of University of Phoenix means it's better or doing it's job or in fact the "consumer" has chosen.<br /><br />Mark N- I get where you're coming from but have you actually tried to take a class in the model you're proposing? I've had the same feelings about some of my classes. Wondering why I'm even bothering going when the professor is so terrible and I pretty much need to teach myself from the book anyways. But you know what happens when I stop going? I fail the class. I've had professors do podcasts, and whether I've attended the class or not it's just not the same thing. I'm not sure what you studied but it didn't work for me (engineering). There is an advantage to at least thinking about the class for a forced 3-4 hours a week, even if your lecturer is terrible. And on the other hand I've had really awesome lecturers, in humanities and in engineering. And it's been almost a joy to go to class. And I still have to be clocked in for nine hours every day so I know when I'm looking forward to class that much it really is worth it.<br /><br />My employer is very picky about where you got your degree from because they know it matters. So are the local competitors. Naturally university of phoenix does not offer an online engineering program, but a local company would rather have a software engineer from a decent local private or public college versus someone with a degree from an online diploma mill. There are reasons for this.<br /><br />Luis- if college was easy, everyone would do it. Unfortunately those of us who are non-traditional students at some point in our lives made decisions that would leave us there. Is it annoying there are very few evening classes and none of the offices are open in the evening? Yes. But as my university probably has 99.9% traditional students I can understand how it's not cost efficient for them to work things around MY schedule. I've had my angry days like you where I think about how hard I work and how my income tax dollars are going to support this college that's not making a reasonable effort to accomodate me. But you know what? You have got to get over it. Life isn't fair. And you can't blame the university for ignoring non-traditional students when that makes the most economic sense for them, and therefore spending less of your hard earned income tax dollars. I'm sure if you compare the choices you made to those that got an easy online degree in another ten years you will be very happy you made the extra effort and the sacrifice. That's how we know that model of public education is still very much worth it- because people like you and me are still choosing it.FrauTechhttp://frautech.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1384826108794273362010-06-14T11:19:35.276-05:002010-06-14T11:19:35.276-05:00Hmm... I teach an online course that is similar to...Hmm... I teach an online course that is similar to an in person course. The students tell me the online course is much more difficult, and if their schedule allowed for it, they would take it in person. If college is about learning stuff, and not rubber stamping a grade/degree, I don't think in person courses are going to go away any time soon.LSquared32https://www.blogger.com/profile/00858524638866166691noreply@blogger.com