tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post8693784073366596923..comments2024-03-14T04:53:49.513-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Missing in AugustFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-55147365572840053572010-09-01T09:51:52.283-05:002010-09-01T09:51:52.283-05:00People who make an annual pilgrimage to their home...People who make an annual pilgrimage to their homeland also tend to take less holidays and long weekends? Would you agree with that?<br /><br />I have a PI who makes a full Saturday compulsory also. But still gives typical vacation time (10-15 days, Saturday is included as a vacay day if you're absent!), although he gets an extra 52 days of work.<br /><br />There should be some regulation honestly. It causes burnout!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87837386017477584382010-08-12T12:23:25.425-05:002010-08-12T12:23:25.425-05:00Someone commented that 4 weeks of vacation is rare...Someone commented that 4 weeks of vacation is rare, but as an inexperienced biomedical research tech I started with 4 weeks. The catch is that it was earned time, so at the end of my first year I had 4 weeks if I had not used it along the way.<br /><br />In my experience, the idea of deserved vacation time in a wet-lab research environment has a lot to do with adequate face time, a concept I despise. I try to work 7:30 - 4:30 as a post-doc so that I can do errands, laundry, cook, and exercise without hitting bad rush hour traffic. If I read, plan experiments, or do analysis evenings, no one "knows"; they only know if I'm progressing in my research and learning.<br /><br />So couldn't vacation time for graduate students and post-docs be contingent on if you have earned it, which rests a great deal on your research progress...which is similar to how other work environments function?Female post-docnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35099568782176834022010-08-05T23:54:06.217-05:002010-08-05T23:54:06.217-05:00Aren't grad students typically paid for 20 hrs...Aren't grad students typically paid for 20 hrs per week but expected to work at the minimum twice the number of hours?<br /><br />RaineeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32507100332984756642010-08-05T10:02:38.372-05:002010-08-05T10:02:38.372-05:00I agree with Mix - in the absence of a standard, w...I agree with Mix - in the absence of a standard, what seems "fair" to one PI can be very different from what is "fair" to another. Typically, I know PIs who consider it fair that a student or postdoc gets 10 days p.a. IF they have been dedicated and highly productive. And others (in the same institute) who consider it fair that their student or postdoc take whatever time off they want (in practice, this has meant up to 6 or 8 weeks p.a.) as long the PI is told when the person's going be in and out of the lab. <br /><br />Even if folks are told about the situation upfront, how is this fair and flexible to those who end up working for a PI who is stricter about vacation time? <br /><br />I have to say that I was shocked to meet people here in the US who don't even conceive the idea of a vacation time longer than 10 days p.a. They just don't understand why you'd want it, or why it would even exist. They are as shocked at the idea of a "long" vacation as I am at the idea of the lack of it.Aislinghttp://almostthere.over-blog.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21492906137001906812010-08-04T10:06:52.640-05:002010-08-04T10:06:52.640-05:00I work in Europe and rarely take more than a coupl...I work in Europe and rarely take more than a couple of weeks' vacation at the same time over the summer, though that means I usually take at least a week in the Christmas/New Year period and a week or a bit less at Easter, as well.<br /><br />I'm currently spending a few weeks learning how the media report on science - and I have to say, US researchers have been a lot harder to get hold of over the summer.Dr Spousehttp://evidence-based-parenting.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-24554304677520106322010-08-04T09:54:21.018-05:002010-08-04T09:54:21.018-05:00"That introduces inequity, but also flexibili..."That introduces inequity, but also flexibility."<br /><br />Well in practice, it often introduces more of the first than of the second.<br /><br />This is quite unique, for what I've seen, that one guy (the PI) is directly responsible for almost everything concerning the people he manages with almost no higher authority to deal with (since most universities say that questions about holidays or stuffs like that are at the discretion of the PI). <br /><br />Because there are no rules and because Students Unions don't mean much, you have strong cases of abusive PIs (people that keep you 8 years before they allow you to graduate, people that never allow you to take holidays or even week-ends and so on. Examples there: http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2010/06/22/something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry/ ).<br /><br />I don't say that all advisers are abusive, and in fact most of them are still nice people despite the "power" they have over you. And even in France where there are strict laws protecting workers (and so, PhD students), I knew some really bad (mean) PIs. Still, it seems to me that they were fewer and at least they couldn't do easily all what they would have liked, as it happens in the US, because of these rules.<br /><br />So I guess that wouldn't be a bad idea: "If the university were responsible for paying student summer salary, a standardized system would likely exist."mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-61705362673298029942010-08-04T09:07:35.163-05:002010-08-04T09:07:35.163-05:00If the university were responsible for paying stud...If the university were responsible for paying student summer salary, a standardized system would likely exist. In the system in which we advisers are responsible for salary and the effort associated with it, we make decisions that might not seem fair because (as I and others have noted) some students can take a month off and continue their excellent and timely progress towards their degree, and some cannot. That introduces inequity, but also flexibility. It is part of our responsibility as advisers to make decisions about these things, weighing issues of time, money, and productivity. In some cases, an adviser's decision that a student should not take an extended vacation in the summer is best for the student; for example, if working all summer will increase the chances for that student to finish their degree before their funding runs out. Perhaps the key thing is to discuss these issues at an early stage so that everyone knows the factors.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84301901591144479192010-08-04T08:39:11.544-05:002010-08-04T08:39:11.544-05:00Idealist, yes it would be great if it worked that ...Idealist, yes it would be great if it worked that way. Sadly, if you leave it up to a person's supervisor, they can give you as much (or as little) vacation time as they want and there's not much you can do about it short of looking for another job where the situation will potentially be the same. For this reason, I think it's a good idea to have a higher authority deciding that people have the option of taking X amount of time off, with X >> 10 days pa. Just like there is a 40 hour week, there should be a X days pa standard vacation time.Aislinghttp://almostthere.over-blog.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-69432735009713414102010-08-04T05:41:03.153-05:002010-08-04T05:41:03.153-05:00Academic work and research are hard to quantify in...Academic work and research are hard to quantify in terms of work hours, since many of us work irregular hours that add up to significantly more than 40 hours per week. Add to that the course prep, grading, drafting/reading of journal articles, grant writing that goes on in the home office and I'd say that there's a dearth of true down time for profs, post-docs, and grad students. Yes, there are lazy grad students and post-docs and retired-on-the-job profs, but I still feel most academics work very hard because they are dedicated to their work, not for the pay. If a student or post-doc has been sufficiently productive the rest of the year and wants to take several weeks off in August, I see it as taking a version of "comp time" for all the hours s/he has banked the rest of the year. If an individual is lazy, then that needs to be addressed directly, not as result of vacation time. And people who leave for any amount of time need to be proactive about letting their PI and other lab members know about their plans, arranging for interim issues (like deadlines) and agreeing to how often and to what extent they will be in touch via internet or phone or dog sled. One thing I highly value in academia is the flexibility and freedom in how we do our work....I don't want to turn it into an hourly job shop where we clock in and out and report and log every move through HR.Idealistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29379021805496893412010-08-04T00:21:34.770-05:002010-08-04T00:21:34.770-05:00FSP is getting flamed a bit here; I am a prof with...FSP is getting flamed a bit here; I am a prof with 10 grad students and I feel the same way as she does. Basically, I let all my students have lots of time off, including 2 months for one student who went to a conference in Europe, added some sight-seeing time, then went to China for 6 weeks to renew her visa, and now is asking for a month of "vacation" time in August as she has not had a vacation yet - but she has not been in the lab for 2 months and did not do any work or reply to email while away, so everything we rely on her for has ground to a halt. <br />Most students are great but there are some who are not really productive enough to justify being paid off of a grant, and then they ask for 2 months off in the summer. So these are really the folks who drive us crackers, as they are slowly sinking the lab (and leeching off of others) with their poor commitment level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-5797886430737097092010-08-03T20:06:13.873-05:002010-08-03T20:06:13.873-05:00UnlikelyGrad, I didn't call the sabbatical a v...UnlikelyGrad, I didn't call the sabbatical a vacation, but it was certainly a year off from supervision. A replacement was arranged - a good guy but with whom I had little in common research-wise. I thought it was an interesting alternative perspective on the complaints about some students taking a whole month off, that my supervisor was absent for my entire first year as a grad student. (Not that it scarred me for life, oh no, I'm sane as a hatter...woof)James Annanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04318741813895533700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26098133625411404792010-08-03T14:39:14.010-05:002010-08-03T14:39:14.010-05:00I'm from Europe and on my 5th year in the US e...I'm from Europe and on my 5th year in the US enjoying 10 days vacation/year. At this point, I feel comfortable saying that *real* vacation time is a win/win situation that is grossly underestimated here in the US, at least among researchers. First, as transpires from mixlamalice's post, having the *option* to take 5 or 6 weeks off does not necessarily mean that one is going to do it religiously every single year. I never did take 5 or 6 weeks when I had the option (although I'm starting to feel sorry I didn't jump at the opportunity when I had it). But the mere option changes everything. Currently, I spend more time every year sitting in my office lamenting that I don't have the option to go away for a few weeks in the summer. While, instead of unproductively lamenting, if I were away on that vacation, I'd love my job more and I'd be much more happy and productive coming back from said vacation. As others have pointed out, productivity in research should be considered over a larger time span than one month, and I don't feel more productive with 10 days vacation than I would be with 25. On the other hand, I certainly feel less happy, especially comes summer.Aislingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3944399330474049492010-08-03T14:06:54.215-05:002010-08-03T14:06:54.215-05:00As a grad student (at a large US university), my a...As a grad student (at a large US university), my advisor always asked what percentage of time I wanted to get paid (=work) during the summer. If I wanted to take vacation, I always asked for 50-75% pay. Thus, I was actually getting paid for the amount of work I was doing and we didn't run into any problems.Nancynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-69178482314601997422010-08-03T07:30:43.602-05:002010-08-03T07:30:43.602-05:00@James Annan:
You call taking a sabbatical a vaca...@James Annan:<br /><br />You call taking a sabbatical a vacation? Good grief!<br /><br />My dad was a professor and he always worked HARDER during his sabbaticals than he did otherwise. A sabbatical is time off from teaching, yes, but it's a year meant to be devoted completely to research. My own advisor is about to head off on sabbatical, and her list of stuff to do during the year is daunting...UnlikelyGradhttp://unlikelygrad.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91918549590843249522010-08-03T07:09:30.868-05:002010-08-03T07:09:30.868-05:00It is true that in Europe we are often paid with a...It is true that in Europe we are often paid with a year-long (one or more for post-docs, 3 or 4 for PhDs) contract including the legal amount of holidays, as in the industry or in any other job. In France, you "belong" to the Ministry of Research, or the CNRS, not to your PI.<br />The rules are most of the times not as strict as in the "real world", so nobody really counts your holidays: if you don't take them, you won't get paid better because you worked extra-time as you would be in the industry. Still, I probably took all my holiday time during my first year of PhD (5-6 weeks for the year), only 2/3 of it during my second year, and only 5 days (national holidays included) during my 3rd and final year. <br />I am not alone in this case and know a lot of scientists that don't take all their time off (and in consequence, actually work for free).<br />All in all, taking some holidays, especially when things were not working well to clear off my mind didn't prevent me to be quite productive (4 first author papers in 3 years of PhD, a reasonable result).<br /><br />Then I went to the US. I took roughly 3-4 weeks of holidays there, including national holidays. I took one week to 10 days during Christmas, then around the same amount to go back to France interviewing for jobs (nice holiday). My advisor was ok with that and I'm glad he was: as others said, there's no point going abroad to see your family if this is only for 3 days and going to cost you 1 month of salary and 12 hours of flight.<br />It was probably more than the average grad student who took 1 week during Christmas and 1 week in the summer. But I thought that the whole holiday process for grad students in the US was a bit more childish than in my home country: grad students please the advisor by almost never taking holidays, however when the advisor is on leave, at a conference for example, most of them don't do anything for the whole time he has left. They don't come at all, or they just show up a few hours surfing on Facebook. They do a couple of quick experiments, then pretend it didn't work, or they work very hard the days before their meeting after the advisor has come back.<br />When I was in France, sure I was taking long time off. But then, when I was in the lab, I wasn't watching if my advisor was there to work hard... It seemed to me it was a more adult relationship.mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26745836342597174572010-08-03T02:09:29.548-05:002010-08-03T02:09:29.548-05:00I work at a large European University in the physi...I work at a large European University in the physical sciences. This month of August there are only postdocs and grad students haunting the corridors of my building. All the bosses are off for >1 month.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13539715568092557702010-08-03T01:38:51.263-05:002010-08-03T01:38:51.263-05:00When I accept a grant, it is a legal contract for ...When I accept a grant, it is a legal contract for services rendered including percent effort (i.e., amount of working hours) that will be provided by myself and my students and postdocs as stipulated in the budget. Therefore, when I am paying myself off of grants, I do not take long vacations and neither do my students or postdocs. My general policy is that all lab members get 3 weeks vacation plus national holidays. Just like a "real" job, they must inform me ahead of time of their vacation days. Often, foreign students choose to use their entire annual vacation at one time. This requires some advanced planning on my part (I move them to unrestricted funding so as to not violate my grant contracts), but is generally not a problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3221321638235043772010-08-03T00:56:00.796-05:002010-08-03T00:56:00.796-05:00I think that the main difference between USA and E...I think that the main difference between USA and Europe is that we (thankfully) have something that is called "paid vacation", so whether you pay your student or not in summer would be a moot point. Every worker is entitled to a month vacation every year, or the proportional number of days if his/her contract is not for the full 12-month period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-46594670130803298882010-08-02T23:04:45.882-05:002010-08-02T23:04:45.882-05:00This issue is at the heart of the "freedom&qu...This issue is at the heart of the "freedom" of the academic life that is so often a big part of the reason many of us want to be researchers. Unlike our friends who work for a company, we usually don't have to tabulate our days off and deal with HR in determining our vacation, sick and personal days. But, as a graduate student about to finish, I truly wish I had some clear guidelines to work with over the past several years. I am extremely dedicated to my work, and I want my advisor to think highly of me and help facilitate my career advancement. But I don't want to play guessing games about how much physical presence is necessary in the lab/office to demonstrate my dedication. Some of the comments hit on the guilt associated with vacation. I feel that too and it makes me really want to trade some of this 'freedom' for some clear, reasonable guidelines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52922727636245270232010-08-02T22:51:00.533-05:002010-08-02T22:51:00.533-05:00I don't have any problem believing that studen...I don't have any problem believing that students or postdocs can take a month off and still make excellent progress on their research (or have their overall research improved by the break), and I try to facilitate this if possible, even in the summer. However, if I am paying the student from a grant for that month of work, they need to work, just as I do if I am paid from a grant for a particular time. It's not a question of standards or fairness or whether I earn my salary as a professor or whatever.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44233149796251014702010-08-02T22:45:14.135-05:002010-08-02T22:45:14.135-05:00I think that FSP's question illustrates a larg...I think that FSP's question illustrates a larger problem with the system of graduate education in the US: so many issues regarding working conditions are left solely up to the advisor. <br /><br />Who would accept any other job without knowing how much vacation you would get? When I was at my university, I always hated having to ask my advisor if I could take vacation, because even though he always allowed it, I always ended up feeling guilty for not spending 365 days a year in the lab.<br /><br />Is the purpose of graduate school to conduct some sort of academic hazing process, or is it to turn students into adult members of the scientific community? I think it's the latter, and part of that means treating students as considerately as you would treat the scientists that they will (hopefully) become. If it's all right for your colleagues with PhDs to take their vacation in one big chunk, it's all right for your graduate students to do the same.Michalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-74740665149832046802010-08-02T22:26:17.831-05:002010-08-02T22:26:17.831-05:00I agree with Fia: "Someone who's dedicate...I agree with Fia: <i>"Someone who's dedicated to his/her research will take off as much time as needed without hurting ones success, - because in science we all work for ourselfs in the first place."</i><br /><br />I really do feel that compared to Europe, students (and postdocs) are treated and considered to both be more 'student' than 'colleague'. Having seen both sides of the coin, I don't think the US never-leave-work version leads to increased productivity.<br />Furthermore, depending on the type of work you do, taking 3 small breaks a year will cause your experiments to be delayed at least as much as taking a single long one. Starting up and breaking up breeding your animals, for instance.Thinkerbellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85802986238015192352010-08-02T21:56:49.819-05:002010-08-02T21:56:49.819-05:00Any postdoc should have a contract which specifies...Any postdoc should have a contract which specifies working conditions, which includes hours and holidays. They are an employee like any other. I've never taken a full month off since graduating, but have certainly arranged long vacations and working absences and no-one has ever suggested this is at all unreasonable.<br /><br />As a student, I can't remember exactly, but after being an undergrad with 3x8 week terms per year, I certainly took a bit less holiday as a grad student :-) OTOH my DPhil supervisor took a whole year off on sabbatical, so could hardly complain.<br /><br />My complaint about the USA is not that people "have to work crazy long hours to succeed" but that contracted hours are crazy long irrespective of notions or ambitions of success. I just had my attention drawn to a position which advertised a 40h working week, and only 16 days leave plus about 10 national holidays. Currently I work 37hpw, have 27 days leave and about 18 fixed holidays. I'm not applying (though it would be wrong to pretend that these conditions were a big factor in the decision). <br /><br />Almost no-one here actually uses their leave, but that's the Japanese for you...James Annanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04318741813895533700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-69409135327067948912010-08-02T20:30:49.755-05:002010-08-02T20:30:49.755-05:00As a European postdoc now working in the US (West ...As a European postdoc now working in the US (West Coast), I'd like to second Nitish's comment about needing around 3 weeks minimum to make the trip back home worth the cost of the flights and the time lost due to travel and jet-lag. As he or she says, this is the only time I get to see my family, and making the 'tour' around to see all the grandparents and friends etc. takes up much of the time.<br /><br />I also wanted to add something that no-one else has mentioned so far: I have to spend part of my vacation renewing my visa every year (my contract is year-to-year so I can only get a one-year visa). This takes up ~2 days of vacation time and about 10 days of processing time at the US embassy in my country, plus I have to factor in some lee-way in case anything goes wrong with the process, or there is a delay with delivery. So from a purely practical visa-renewal point of view, international postdocs can need at least 2 weeks vacation.<br /><br />My PI has always been fine about any of us (foreign or not) taking ~3 weeks away in the summer. We all work hard for the rest of the time, and he doesn't seem to have a problem with anyone's productivity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11653175630664252352010-08-02T18:13:52.518-05:002010-08-02T18:13:52.518-05:00Grad students are paid 11 months so that they do n...Grad students are paid 11 months so that they do not have to be awarded benefits, not because of an owed amount of vacation time.<br /><br />The Boss' world would have imploded if any of us had requested four weeks off. And justifiably so. It is all about momentum. Taking a month off in the work-intense summer time would have been suicide for our projects' progress.Unbalanced Reactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407339711183651108noreply@blogger.com