tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post9078837664446895882..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Levels of WorkFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-58637632212190604102009-02-05T21:33:00.000-06:002009-02-05T21:33:00.000-06:00I agree with one of the Anonymi who said you are p...I agree with one of the Anonymi who said you are paid for 20 hours a week, but you are also taking "research" for credit, which accounts for the other 20 hours per week (or more). This is how I have always thought about my time as a grad student.<BR/><BR/>This makes your advisor about 50% boss - 50% professor who is grading you (even if it is pass/fail). So logically you should want to make them happy, and if you don't they can either fire you or fail you or both.<BR/><BR/>Of course the professor should make his/her expectations clear or they may not get what they want from even the most well-meaning students. That has been a problem for me in grad school. Sometimes I think my professor doesn't even know what she wants out of us...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29919929751257118572009-01-26T10:27:00.000-06:002009-01-26T10:27:00.000-06:00John, I'm the anonymous grad student who doesn't w...John, I'm the anonymous grad student who doesn't work hard. You're wrong. I don't feel badly as if it's unfair to others that I don't work hard because it's the results that matter in science, not how many times you're willing to <BR/>bang your head against the wall. That's why I'm the most successful grad student in my year right now. If you're trained well, and know what the hell you are doing, you can get a lot done in 30 hours a week if all you're doing is experiments and occasional paper writing.<BR/><BR/>I just want to work as successfully for a longer period time than the 20-30 hours a week that I put in of 'real work time' so that I can get twice as many good results done.<BR/><BR/>However, it's too late now and I'm leaving for a postdoc at a really big and famous lab, so perhaps a change in scenery will and circumstances will make me work hard. If I have to prove myself over again, that could be the motivation necessary. <BR/><BR/>There is a difference about sitting around as a paperweight and getting your Ph.D., and working little and getting your Ph.D. because you're good at what you do. Until I'm surrounded by harder working people who have more and better publications, I won't feel like I'm letting them down by being lazy. <BR/><BR/>Anyways, even though no one gave me advice, over the past week I just realized (after thinking really hard about it for a few days) that I wasn't challenged enough in grad school and all the goals the program set for me were too low (and I didn't feel like setting them myself since I was lazy). Even the thesis writing part was fairly easy and I managed to slack off during that. I won't make the same mistake in my postdoc and if I stay in the lab 60 hours, it'll be 60 hours of real work. <BR/><BR/>It's not a martyrdom contest to see who can put in 80 hours a week just to 'show' others that they are tough. Rarely are those 80 hours spent working 'well'. Please see the next post for a discussion in a similar vein.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40224728814030795402009-01-25T14:26:00.000-06:002009-01-25T14:26:00.000-06:00good blog, FSP. you make some very reasonable argu...good blog, FSP. you make some very reasonable arguments. graduate research is not for everybody. there are many smart people out there who don't do grad study for several reasons. but if you choose this career, then you have to work hard. otherwise it would be unfair to those people who work so hard to earn the same PhD degree as one who lazes his/her time away.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02951684208721042956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82726760941991007742009-01-25T14:01:00.000-06:002009-01-25T14:01:00.000-06:00Even though I am a grad student, I have to agree w...Even though I am a grad student, I have to agree with this blogger.!=42https://www.blogger.com/profile/10042070353794651054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89415143426326693522009-01-24T15:08:00.000-06:002009-01-24T15:08:00.000-06:00hihi..nice bloghihi..nice blogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48908689048491945912009-01-23T00:21:00.000-06:002009-01-23T00:21:00.000-06:00It is interesting to compare this post and the com...It is interesting to compare this post and the comments to your next post, as in some ways the ideas are contradictory. If all grad students need to be told that unless they work 60 to 80 hours per week to be a "real" grad students, they will never make it, you will surely discourage women with children, or thinking of having children, from going into academia. <BR/><BR/>When I was a grad student, early on I had a confrontation with my advisor about time in the lab, but he had never gone over expectations, and I was still taking classes etc. It really is up to the advisor to lay out his or her expectations at the start, and not to expect the grad students to automatically know their advisor will be angry if they don't spend their life in the lab.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1234403678265378902009-01-22T22:46:00.000-06:002009-01-22T22:46:00.000-06:00I once had a student who did have a large family. ...I once had a student who did have a large family. His method was to accomplish (fully) one task each day. It worked, he didn't spend a lot of time on the web, etc.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31939782645095084632009-01-22T11:20:00.000-06:002009-01-22T11:20:00.000-06:00Well, that student is clueless and the advisor is ...Well, that student is clueless and the advisor is very forgiving. I don't know of any advisor in my department that wouldn't flip out after hearing that and institute some form of punishment (well, maybe a few wouldn't, but they would be very unhappy).<BR/><BR/>I think I'm one of the bad graduate students though. I'm very productive and I got more published than anyone in my year over my graduate career, but I work very little. I show up for 80 hours a week, but I really, really wish it was less. That's because I work in a spurt of activity that lasts three to four hours a day, and the rest of the time I get distracted and read popular science news, or news on the internet, and when I check the clock, four hours have disappeared! I really only work 30-40 hours a week. What the hell is wrong with me? I can't believe how lazy I am and I'm not sure whether I'll survive in the real world. And when I go home, I just watch TV instead of reading papers or writing. With these kinds of work ethics, I'm definitely not good enough for a faculty job, or any job in research at all.<BR/><BR/>It makes me angry because I used to be more effective at using my time in the lab just a couple of years ago. And there is no negative stuff to show for my laziness since I got the most done out of all the other students (but I know I could do twice as much if only I focused). I tried to set a goal for myself for writing one of my professor's grants and writing a few papers entirely by myself, but I just gave up at some point and spent that time watching TV. It just makes me frustrated and kind of sad.... I feel like just getting a job at Starbucks because that's what I really deserve even though I published a lot of papers on the surface and 'beat' everyone in my year in that department. I guess I was just really lucky in my research and it wasn't enough of a challenge and I'm too lazy to set my own goals. I have some ideas of what I would like to do if I ever got the chance to work on my own ideas (and I'm really excited about them), but with the way my life is right now, I think I'd be setting myself up for failure if I got a job as a professor.<BR/><BR/>Any advice?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-86573467985196833702009-01-22T09:22:00.000-06:002009-01-22T09:22:00.000-06:00"being constructively confused"HA! I think these ..."being constructively confused"<BR/><BR/>HA! I think these 3 words describe most of my graduate career so far! FSP you are brilliant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35310025542064432022009-01-22T01:21:00.000-06:002009-01-22T01:21:00.000-06:00I also supervise undergraduate student research as...I also supervise undergraduate student research as part of senior theses but often their course workload precludes them from spending sufficient time on their research to make good progress. It is rewarding but ultimately I spend so much time advising students, I would be much better off doing the research and writing the papers myself. When it comes to tenure, I get very little credit for advising versus publishing and bringing in grant support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32143501149487824412009-01-21T22:55:00.000-06:002009-01-21T22:55:00.000-06:00I don't really see the big deal -- why doesn't the...I don't really see the big deal -- why doesn't the professor tell the student what is expected, and that he will need to find a new advisor if he does not meet the expectations? This is pretty standard at most jobs ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37406949996859825562009-01-21T21:44:00.000-06:002009-01-21T21:44:00.000-06:00As a current PhD student, I experience on a daily ...As a current PhD student, I experience on a daily basis a huge problem that Anon 8:11 alluded to: slacking grad students bringing down the morale of the rest.<BR/><BR/>In my Masters lab (I'm in an area where it's really commom to do your MS and PhD at different schools), I had quite a few fellow students who didn't hit it too hard. Now at my PhD institution, even as the only student of my advisor, I feel like I can't escape the slacking, lazy, or generally unfocused students. Not only do they often make me wonder why I work so hard, but they also distract us with their playing around and asking for help. <BR/><BR/>That's not even getting into the time they take away from our advisors, who like you describe, try to keep them going. Or our classes, TAing responsibilites, etc. where their lack of focus makes us have to pull their weight too. <BR/><BR/>And I haven't even mentioned research.<BR/><BR/>FSP, how do you deal with this? How much do faculty members see this morale problem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-807423264736897182009-01-21T21:36:00.000-06:002009-01-21T21:36:00.000-06:00That's a great point. I have colleagues in your di...That's a great point. I have colleagues in your difficult situation at similar institutions. They tell me that working with smart and motivated undergrads (for pay or academic credit) is far more rewarding (intellectually and otherwise) than advising MS students who are just there because they didn't know what else to do after graduating from their undergrad institutions. <BR/><BR/>Of course, some MS students at MS-only institutions are as smart, motivated and hard-working as grad students anywhere, but it is difficult (and maybe impossible, at least for me) to predict in advance who is going to work out and who is not.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84121860024805502732009-01-21T21:22:00.000-06:002009-01-21T21:22:00.000-06:00I'm in the more awkward position of being at a lar...I'm in the more awkward position of being at a large, public university where an MS degree is the highest offered. We have no university funding to pay students (i.e., *if* they get paid a salary, it's off a grant and there are no tuition waivers...well, they can teach a lab section for a measly $2,200 a semester but there aren't enough of those to go around). How am I supposed to lay down the law with my students if I can't hold their salary over their heads? I've explained my expectations for their research but ultimately it's their career on the line. I have one particularly (I think) lazy student who I wouldn't spend a dime on now that I know how lazy he is (and I've just had a large grant funded).<BR/><BR/>FYI, even given the conditions at my university, my Dean still expects us to hire "superstars". There is no way FSP's student is going to turn out to be a superstar at this rate. And I doubt he (and probably many graduate students) realizes how much work a faculty position really is...even at a small liberal arts college.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82626273924144147272009-01-21T18:53:00.000-06:002009-01-21T18:53:00.000-06:00I think that if you're lazy, you're lazy, and you'...I think that if you're lazy, you're lazy, and you'll continue to be lazy, no matter what your position/profession in the future. Look out there how hard it is to get any kind of job! You cannot afford to argue and bargain with advisors about how you shouldn't work too hard. I can't believe it!<BR/>Another point that I want to make is that training in graduate school includes gaining the understanding that life is tough, how to deal with bosses in the future, how to manage a high work load, how to be competitive on the market, not just lectures and hand holding. Encouraging laziness would not help the students in any way. I was not happy with my advisor at the time of my Ph.D., for different reasons, but actually, right or wrong at that time, because he/she made my life difficult, it also prepared me for the life out there, so I came to be grateful later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83302367800969453892009-01-21T18:49:00.000-06:002009-01-21T18:49:00.000-06:00This student just doesn't sound passionate enough....This student just doesn't sound passionate enough. I'd be worrying if s/he was my student.<BR/>I have no problem with students working short hours, if that is the way they personally are most productive. However, it seems that most students go through a period where long hours seem to be necessary in order to finish. <BR/><BR/>I also know that some students can't do long hours because they have other commitments, but I notice that when they are present they generally don't muck around. Often these students also spend alot of time away from work thinking about problems.<BR/><BR/>For me, passion is the key to productivity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-911308816167481562009-01-21T18:27:00.000-06:002009-01-21T18:27:00.000-06:00What if the PhD graduate student TAs (teaches 1-2 ...What if the PhD graduate student TAs (teaches 1-2 classes/semester)for his stipend and not rely on his/her professor's grant/money.<BR/><BR/>Are the expectations diff.?<BR/><BR/>Like Social science and History graduate students who must TA for a living?<BR/><BR/>And how do you expect grad. students to TA and do 100% Research in the same semester. Teaching takes a lot of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79099460168789202522009-01-21T16:02:00.000-06:002009-01-21T16:02:00.000-06:00It sounds like this student may just be rather laz...It sounds like this student may just be rather lazy. But there are other students whose goals are jobs at SLACs who I think have some legitimate complaints about the graduate school system.<BR/><BR/>In particular: it does not prepare them particularly well for what they want to do.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, for how many of us has dissertation research truly informed or improved our teaching? I don't think mine has at all. Taking classes for the masters did, but the last few years of working on a very narrow topic have been pretty much useless. Furthermore, that topic was largely defined by the grant my advisor received soon after I started, not by my interests, so I have been bored.<BR/><BR/>Now yes, in the SLAC job that I have recently accepted, I will be doing some research. So it is necessary for even grad students with SLAC goals to learn about research. However, I don't think the last 3 years really taught me any more about that than the first 2 did.<BR/><BR/>And grad school often includes zero preparation for teaching. Basically what I'm saying here is that the system is set up to train for R1, and it is not a good fit for SLAC. That's no excuse for people like me to be lazy, but it shouldn't be a big surprise if we're unhappy (and therefore less efficient and effective) in grad school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-81637159244500047612009-01-21T15:34:00.000-06:002009-01-21T15:34:00.000-06:00Somebody mentioned the level of pay being low..you...Somebody mentioned the level of pay being low..you forgot to mention that many times if you are paying a student 1500 a month that will qualify them for half-time (what is called at my instituion) and a tuition waiver from the university..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34537523744538227402009-01-21T15:29:00.000-06:002009-01-21T15:29:00.000-06:00What bothers me is that the grad student can't see...What bothers me is that the grad student can't see his own place within the ecosystem of the lab and the research, himself. <BR/><BR/>That kind of myopia will be a serious liability in whatever he chooses. <BR/><BR/>It's not about SLAC vs R1, and as others have pointed out, jobs are just.plain.hard. to get anywhere. This grad student will have trouble no matter where he ends up, even at Starbucks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01992875978893370438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40669660293858421012009-01-21T14:38:00.000-06:002009-01-21T14:38:00.000-06:00It strikes the that the PI is also at fault in thi...It strikes the that the PI is also at fault in this situation. In general, it takes both a ineffective manager and a undedicated worker for work not to get done. But the problem here seems to be the insistence on hours rather than "product". To be fair, this is an endemic problem in training grad students (and running research groups in general). The PI obviously has some expectations of what the student will produce (a plot of new data every 2 weeks or whatever), but he is only telling the student that he wants him to work more. The student seems clearly not to care much about his research, but in this situation I think that either the PI needs to cut his losses or change his approach. I think concrete expectations are a lot more effective than vague admonitions about working harder. While the exact expectations might not be so concrete, there are organic ways to frame the discussion. Ultimately, if the student doesn't respond, I think the PI is within his right to let the student go. But I think many PI's fail to recognize that they have fairly specific expectation of their students that they don't communicate. The many, many comments complaining about the students working 80+ without accomplishing anything seem to support this. It seems to me that both the PI's and students would benefit if the relationship was recognized as a managerial one and if expectations were communicated accordingly. This can even be accomplished in a laboratory setting where goals are less well-defined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35855039594929634822009-01-21T13:33:00.000-06:002009-01-21T13:33:00.000-06:00Two points. 1) This student is clearly lacking in ...Two points. <BR/><BR/>1) This student is clearly lacking in some essential qualities that are required for success as a scholar or anywhere else in the work world. Whatever their career goals are, academia has an obvious culture that values hard work. It is just politically foolish to allow your colleagues and superiors to conclude that you unwilling to work hard, even if it is true. <BR/><BR/>To me, the question is what is the mechanism for "weeding" these sorts of students. Should they be permitted to receive a PhD, or is allowing this a failure of the system. Or is it the job market that should be the filter? Some of these students are gonna get in to grad school. What is the successful outcome for them?<BR/><BR/>2) The balance between employee status and student status of grad students is very complicated. I think more attention should be given to clarifying this business. I think Fia's point is really valid. If you want to expect professional outcomes, maybe you should hire a professional rather than a trainee.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85845693271828229632009-01-21T13:07:00.000-06:002009-01-21T13:07:00.000-06:00We pay our students for "20 hrs/wk" even after the...We pay our students for "20 hrs/wk" even after they are done taking classes, but of course, everyone knows that you have to work more than that to get things done. I have found that, for me (expt. condensed matter), 20 hours a week is around my break even point in a lab. If I work at that level or less, I literally make zero progress, as external factors (drift in experimental parameters, health of shared equipment, etc) tend to change on that timescale. Productivity increases roughly linear in time over twenty hours.<BR/><BR/>That said, you don't have to work the 80 hour week, if you work efficiently. Mere presence in lab does not magically generate progress if you are goofing off.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156476907087949674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12378059263155728622009-01-21T12:30:00.000-06:002009-01-21T12:30:00.000-06:00FSP:Some contracts are for 20 hours/week, but stud...FSP:<BR/>Some contracts are for 20 hours/week, but students who are entirely on research funds and not taking classes are expected to work 'full time' on research (hence my reference to 40 hours/week).<BR/><BR/>I see what you are saying but then these 'expectations' should be explained if not understood by the student. I'm a grad student getting paid for 20hrs/week for research, I'm done with my classes but of course I know I'm supposed to put in 40+ hours. So hopefully the meeting w/ the supervisor explaining what is expected will help solve the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7332532529002056552009-01-21T12:14:00.000-06:002009-01-21T12:14:00.000-06:00FSP said "I am glad I didn't scale my grad researc...FSP said "I am glad I didn't scale my grad research efforts to my career goal at the time...."<BR/><BR/>That's exactly right. I started off "knowing" that I wanted to be a TT prof, but now I'm not so sure. Career plans change, so working less because you *think* you want a certain career isn't the best way to go about things.<BR/><BR/>Sounds to me like the student is a bit of a slacker and they're just trying to justify it.Alyssahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695509619557410413noreply@blogger.com