tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post1106534613381238255..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: CERCular Reasoning & Excellent MenFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-19373454717263173552010-05-26T10:53:06.028-05:002010-05-26T10:53:06.028-05:00"For any woman hired to a lifetime position, ..."For any woman hired to a lifetime position, the government promises to pay the university 1 1/2 times her salary. For life. That's a lot of spending money."<br /><br />What portions of Europe?<br /><br />I'm looking for a permanent, possibly faculty job. Hopefully I don't have to compete against a woman, since my dad gave me a Y instead of an X. :(<br /><br />Either that, or weight my applications less toward Europe since I needn't waste my time. *sigh*<br /><br />I really hope I don't stay stuck in postdochood forever. My family can't maintain the uncertainty and we need to get on with our lives. Between this and other things I've heard, I'm very very very uncertain about what my future holds. :( :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85132036931927887282010-05-26T05:47:31.906-05:002010-05-26T05:47:31.906-05:00Anon at CanUni (but also thankfully not Canadian) ...Anon at CanUni (but also thankfully not Canadian) here--It might be useful to flip this on its head and ask why men were OVERrepresented in the CERC pool, given that they clearly (can we all agree) do not make up 100% of excellent scientists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-65735019698917063712010-05-25T23:25:11.767-05:002010-05-25T23:25:11.767-05:00I will probably look sexist, but I will say what i...I will probably look sexist, but I will say what it seems to me to be the case. The mean quality of female scientists is above the mean quality of a male ones, but the variance is lower. So even if we had equal number of male and female professors, I would expect more males at the top (and also at the bottom).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40718520572412373232010-05-25T21:51:24.339-05:002010-05-25T21:51:24.339-05:00I'm curious as to what ratio of women is like ...I'm curious as to what ratio of women is like amongst top researchers? I looked at the top 100 authors by h-index in my field (computer science) and only found 4 women. I don't know what the figure would be like in other fields.<br /><br />I believe that women were under-represented in the CERC program, but by how much? If appropriate representation should have been maybe 1 or 2, then this is minor. If it should have been 5 or 6, then its a serious issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-46291467265549834232010-05-25T20:58:05.920-05:002010-05-25T20:58:05.920-05:00I used the UK Royal Society and the US Nat Acad as...I used the UK Royal Society and the US Nat Acad as a very conservative index of how many 'star' women one would expect to be eligible for this type of award. It's around 10%. <br /><br />If you use a binomial calculator to see what the chances are of getting 36 zeros, just by sheer chance, when for each nomination there was a 10% chance of getting a terrific woman... hmmmm.... p = 0.022. <br /><br />So really, no-one can claim this was just 'one of those things': it really is bias!<br /><br />Georgia (UoGuelph -- but thankfully not Canadian...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-74204152685818330882010-05-25T16:36:24.324-05:002010-05-25T16:36:24.324-05:00About 10 years ago, the people administering the C...<i>About 10 years ago, the people administering the Canada Research Chairs program were shocked (shocked!) to discover how few recipients were women.</i><br /> <br />While some people tried to make hay out of the number of women in the original CRC chair allocation, the issue was a lot less clear cut.<br /><br />In fact, when the numbers were examined in closer detail the representation of women at the each level (CRCs come in senior and junior versions) was close to the expected value when adjusting for seniority. That is the percentage of senior female CRC holders was about the same order as the percentage of female full professors. Ditto for junior CRC and assistant professors. <br /><br />In the end the only decision was to increment the number of junior chairs, to give an opportunity for women to raise to the top tiers.<br /><br />Contrast this with the current CERC situation where the proportions are totally out of whack.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9415944185505077872010-05-25T14:31:53.483-05:002010-05-25T14:31:53.483-05:00It's deja vu all over again. About 10 years a...It's deja vu all over again. About 10 years ago, the people administering the Canada Research Chairs program were shocked (shocked!) to discover how few recipients were women.Rosie Redfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06807912674127645263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85978203480017274512010-05-25T13:56:00.264-05:002010-05-25T13:56:00.264-05:00I think that the university filter is a huge issue...I think that the university filter is a huge issue. At my CanUni, almost everything but NSERC Strategic and Discovery grants go through a university filter. What that means is that if you aren't perceived as brilliant in your local context (and many women aren't--just look at the pay disparities within most universities), then you'll never make it into the pool of nominees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10339764731916306222010-05-25T10:47:23.733-05:002010-05-25T10:47:23.733-05:00Why the rush?
So far I've heard of no good re...<i>Why the rush?</i><br /><br />So far I've heard of no good reason for the rush. Likely some sort of political calculation... is the conservative government expecting an election in the summer, perhaps? did they want to get them through before an economic (and presumably cost-cutting) update on the budget? Others?<br /><br />As you said, a slower process but have meant less reliance on the old boys network.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38550640871820121882010-05-25T05:37:25.342-05:002010-05-25T05:37:25.342-05:00Anonymous 8:49--the UFAs are gone and (according t...Anonymous 8:49--the UFAs are gone and (according to my contacts at NSERC) aren't coming back. <br /><br />The engineering chairs are focused on, well, engineering (as the chair who I met last year admitted to me). That's great, but it is not a broad-based effort to support the participation of women in science in creative ways. Hence the reference to ADVANCE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-4149787612563690512010-05-25T03:39:22.699-05:002010-05-25T03:39:22.699-05:00In the case of gender-blind hiring do applicants g...In the case of gender-blind hiring do applicants get codes rather than use their names? I would have thought that names would almost immediately give away the gender of the applicant...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17074575093260758572010-05-25T01:19:43.912-05:002010-05-25T01:19:43.912-05:00Yes, the first round of NIH (US) Pioneer Awards we...Yes, the first round of NIH (US) Pioneer Awards went only to men. Then the PROCESS was changed. Initially, the candidates were nominated by others. Now, any one can apply and the applications are evaluated for Pioneeritude. Since 2004, 30% of the Pioneer awards have gone to women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80535637362556319132010-05-24T23:55:01.856-05:002010-05-24T23:55:01.856-05:00What confuses me, and perhaps I have missed someth...What confuses me, and perhaps I have missed something here, is why NSERC would create such a prestigious set of awards, and then have such a quick rush to fill the chairs. WHY the rush? Why not take the time to do a careful search, and do it right? That part seems suspicious to me, but then again, maybe I missed something here.<br /><br />It certainly seems that this rushed, through-your-local-department/University scheme of nomination worked against equal representation.CDNscientistAbroadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37367766057837622622010-05-24T20:49:40.066-05:002010-05-24T20:49:40.066-05:00An NSF Advance type program is urgently needed in ...<i>An NSF Advance type program is urgently needed in Canada!<br /></i><br /><br />You mean the <a href="http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/Professors-Professeurs/CFS-PCP/CWSE-CFSG_eng.asp" rel="nofollow">NSERC Chairs for Women in Science and Engineering Program </a> or the 1999-2008 <a href="http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/Professors-Professeurs/CFS-PCP/UFA-APU_eng.asp" rel="nofollow">University Faculty Awards</a> which covered the first five years of any female hire in an area where they are underrepresented?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-74725895480699798722010-05-24T20:27:21.872-05:002010-05-24T20:27:21.872-05:00A silver lining of the situation is that the women...<i>A silver lining of the situation is that the women whom are now on the job market may well benefit from this ...</i><br /><br />ROFLOL ... ROFLOL ... yeah, right. I'm in Theoretical Physics.Keahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05652514294703722285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-58470579770093844582010-05-24T20:19:14.933-05:002010-05-24T20:19:14.933-05:00Yes it is an unfortunate outcome. An NSF Advance ...Yes it is an unfortunate outcome. An NSF Advance type program is urgently needed in Canada! <br /><br />A silver lining of the situation is that the women whom are now on the job market may well benefit from this....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18306034900714534822010-05-24T19:34:13.640-05:002010-05-24T19:34:13.640-05:00Those female government apologists should hang the...<i>Those female government apologists should hang their heads in shame.</i><br /><br />I don't see any of those here. A few have pondered how could this have happened. I.e. where the process failed. <br /><br />So many things had to go wrong for this to happen: not a single committee out of 36 selected a woman; not one university sent their candidates back saying "get a woman"?; not one of the more senior bureaucrats with access to the entire list said "hey this is just not right, no minorities no women in this day and age?", the minister himself didn't hold on the list and say "hold on to this until we have a woman", etc. <br /><br />We can do grandstanding here, with might make some feel better but will fix absolutely nothing. Alternatively the Canadians in the readership may, after some introspection and pondering, think about what can be changed in practice to prevent a repeat occurrence. We are all part of this process, since I believe the readership of FSP's blogs is composed of academics, so it is up to us to change it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28955908842838372722010-05-24T19:23:05.553-05:002010-05-24T19:23:05.553-05:00they likely were mostly white men, simply because ...<i>they likely were mostly white men, simply because that is what most (but not all) science and engineering departments in Canada look like.<br /></i><br /><br />You mean white men such as Mona Nemer, VP Research, Ottawa U, Luce Samoisette, President, U Sherbrooke, Feridun Hamdullahpur, Provost, U Waterloo, Christiane Piche, Assoc VP Research, U Laval, Cheryl Misak, Provost, U Toronto, or Martha Crago, VP Research, Dalhousie, ???<br /><br />Look, I am as embarrassed as anyone else in that there were no women there. Not one in the 19 finalist would have been bad enough, none in the list of 36 is outrageous. However I do not use that as an excuse to utter racist comments about the committees which selected the candidates.<br /><br />They failed to select women because they are sexist (perhaps inadvertently so), not because they are white nor because they are men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-42939474185379936732010-05-24T18:19:40.255-05:002010-05-24T18:19:40.255-05:00re anon@4:12
I was reading along, nodding, until ...re anon@4:12<br /><br />I was reading along, nodding, until I came to this:<br /><br /><i>Furthermore, they could have then provided feedback on diversity issues at this earlier stage to ensure universities were aware and equipped to do their best to land the best person, <b>truly irrespective of gender, race, sexual orientation</b>.</i><br /><br />This entire problem has been identified <b>solely</b> by the metric of gender distribution (i.e., 36-0), and will likely be solved by the supervision of making sure the gender distribution is greatly improved at every stage next time.<br /><br />I understand the goal of an absolutely optimal gender-blind process, but it doesn't look like Canada (or anywhere) is getting the hoped-for gender distribution that way any time soon.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-1313874226164288062010-05-24T17:48:32.295-05:002010-05-24T17:48:32.295-05:00Those female government apologists should hang the...Those female government apologists should hang their heads in shame.Keahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05652514294703722285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-66984524444515292902010-05-24T16:12:18.663-05:002010-05-24T16:12:18.663-05:00Re Anon 03:20, I agree that comment is tasteless, ...Re Anon 03:20, I agree that comment is tasteless, but if one looks beyond the stereotyping, there is some content in the point raised.<br /><br />First, the 36 all male nominations were made by universities. The CERC committee had the job of selecting 19 men from a list of 36 men. <br /><br />If you look at the departments which did the work of coming up with a proposal, thinking of names, trying to recruit the top candidate(s) -- i.e. the people who collectively nominated 36 men and 0 women -- they likely were mostly white men, simply because that is what most (but not all) science and engineering departments in Canada look like.<br /><br />Note there are only 2 visible minorities among the 19, one originally from India and one originally from Iran. The latter will join an engineering department at McMaster where 50% of the full faculty are originally from Muslim countries. Coincidence? Perhaps. However, it is depressing that Canadian departments do seem to be getting CERCs which look like most of the senior people in their department, and that applies to both gender and race.<br /><br />The CERC committees and the government do deserve blame however. This was predictable given the informal nature of the hiring. Had they required universities to submit a list of potential names along with their original proposals (of which there were more than 100) the committee could have checked these to see if universities were treating underrepresented groups equally or only placing names on the list which reinforced the status quo. Furthermore, they could have then provided feedback on diversity issues at this earlier stage to ensure universities were aware and equipped to do their best to land the best person, truly irrespective of gender, race, sexual orientation,... However, anyone who knows our government, knows they would not do that and so they are rightly reaping the fallout from their lack of leadership on this issue.<br /><br />Both universities and the government and its committees are at fault in this. And, that includes the President of NSERC and the President of Alberta.CdnFemSciProfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41172183758274171212010-05-24T16:02:40.603-05:002010-05-24T16:02:40.603-05:00An example of the good old boys club.. my univers...An example of the good old boys club.. my university (US, R1) is working on hiring a group of people in a specific topic on a short time frame. At one of the planning meetings to discuss which applicants were worth pursuing, an elderly male suggested we ask 'people in the know if the field who they would suggest.. that's the way we used to do it'<br /><br />To the credit of the younger men in the room, one of them stated, 'yep, and on those job ads we obviously didn't say equal opportunity employer'. It was nice to see that some people do get it.. and, because he was a male it didn't lead to the normal angry discussion that would have followed if I had said itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27789973506873193482010-05-24T15:00:42.510-05:002010-05-24T15:00:42.510-05:00Anon 8:55, this is Anon 12:24. Your figures are st...Anon 8:55, this is Anon 12:24. Your figures are still quite a bit off. For one, individual NSERC grants in Chemistry top out at $190K, not $80K (look it up). <br /><br />As well a researcher of CERC caliber would have no problem obtaining an NSERC strategic grant ($200K a year) as well as a CFI equipment grant for a million dollars every five years.<br /><br />So now we are talking $400K*5+200K*2=$2,400,000 a year. This might still be below the level of the very top US grants, but a hell of a lot closer than what your original figure of $80K a year implied.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10223827797710141322010-05-24T14:49:59.774-05:002010-05-24T14:49:59.774-05:00This is pretty depressing. Around 15 years ago, i...This is pretty depressing. Around 15 years ago, it seemed that the Canadian schools were hiring more women than their US counterparts, at least in chemistry. I'm sad to see that it's regressed and that so little effort was made to identify talented women for the short list.<br />I saw one blog that attributed it to women being less likely to want to relocate. Uh, WTF?Old Biddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12982631719343776864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-57317420993747352542010-05-24T14:13:44.669-05:002010-05-24T14:13:44.669-05:00I remember a woman colleague telling me about goin...I remember a woman colleague telling me about going to a conference in Canada and being told by another (male) attendee that while he was glad to see some women at the conference, he was awfully glad that Canada hadn't gone all overboard with affirmative action the way they had in the US...Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12518980340179305767noreply@blogger.com