tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post2271850847758374984..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Picture ThisFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52983745422701627092010-07-10T10:03:03.343-05:002010-07-10T10:03:03.343-05:00Kudos on 'Picture This', a very clever tit...Kudos on 'Picture This', a very clever titleTonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08582644751812812675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54395328369978694042010-05-12T20:27:20.980-05:002010-05-12T20:27:20.980-05:00A conversation I just had with myself:
"Oh d...A conversation I just had with myself:<br /><br />"Oh dear, is Anonymous right? Was I just dismissive of a FSP's experiences?<br /><br />"I really tried hard to show I wasn't being dismissive. I thought I had made that very clear, repeatedly. Better apologise to FSP if my words didn't convey that.<br /><br />"Did I do the annoying stereotypically-male action of listening to a story that is really just a call for sympathy, and blustering in to try to solve the problem?<br /><br />"Hmmm... FSP has called for other's opinions on appropriateness of photography before (and since) - and she referenced that in the post. I assumed that this invitation for opinions was still open. Maybe I was, as Anonymous put it, tone-deaf here, but I don't think so. I should ask, so I can learn.<br /><br />"Did I lecture?<br /><br />"Well, I did explain something about photography. But I don't think that is the complaint. I am being told off for my tone not content. I took a (rather mild) lecturing tone with someone who suggested I was a creep; but I don't apologise for that. Maybe I should ask.<br /><br />"Was I condescending to females?<br /><br />"Presumably, this refers to my original response to FSP. Condescension requires looking down on someone's intellect, and I certainly don't look down on FSP. She's an SP, and an interesting writer. If anything, I look up to her. So there was no condescension in my mind when I wrote it. Could it have been read that way, anyway. Oh dear, I hope not. If that happened, apologise for that!<br /><br />"Could this response itself be seen as dismissive, condescending, lecturing, inappropriate, defensive, etc?<br /><br />"Lord! I hope not."<br /><br />--------------<br /><br />So, let me apologise (Sincerely! No condescension! Honest!) to FSP if I have come across as dismissive or condescending. It is certainly not how I feel about the situation, and if that is how it is being read, then I have failed in my writing. I invite people to point me to any particularly offensive wording where I could do better; getting tone right in text is hard, and I do want to learn.<br /><br />If I have misread the situation as not being one where FSP wanted to hear opinions, but just wanted to vent, then oops, please let me know.<br /><br />However, I don't want this apology for tone/appropriateness to be read as backing down from my original position: urging people not to lump photographers and pornographers together. It is bad enough that we photographers are being lumped together with terrorists; we are not all creeps, too.Juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23786463760324151262010-05-12T07:54:38.521-05:002010-05-12T07:54:38.521-05:00Or? Maybe, just maybe, this is one of those situat...Or? Maybe, just maybe, this is one of those situations in which it's inappropriate and tone-deaf to lecture a female acquaintance on what she's experienced and the significance thereof. <br /><br />Do go ahead and be defensive if that suits. But being condescending to females will cause you to be mocked. That's just how it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80122809351738075702010-05-11T19:55:10.173-05:002010-05-11T19:55:10.173-05:00Ah, there it is. The insult I had to get no matter...Ah, there it is. The insult I had to get no matter what I said in response to the previous unfounded slur.<br /><br />The discussion has officially degenerated to the "I know you are but what am I?" level. Oh well.Juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50683428087433108832010-05-11T14:57:34.630-05:002010-05-11T14:57:34.630-05:00meta-mansplaining!meta-mansplaining!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87515993884891513932010-05-10T08:53:07.811-05:002010-05-10T08:53:07.811-05:00I agree with Julian that vaguely referring to mans...I agree with Julian that vaguely referring to <i>mansplaining</i>, without citing which posts and why, tends to reduce the discussion to polarized jingoism.<br /><br />It's comparable to its opposite stereotyping, guys saying <i>don't worry your pretty head about it</i>, neither of which promotes the kind of discussion in which I'd want to participate.<br /><br />And while I expect FSP has correctly interpreted the photog's actions, and support his being confronted, there remains a chance that he has an innocent explanation, given just the brief description of his actions here.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-36372220092985712212010-05-10T05:27:34.691-05:002010-05-10T05:27:34.691-05:00@Anonymous #1, re: Breasts not neutral territory.
...@Anonymous #1, re: Breasts not neutral territory.<br /><br />I see your point. I claim (without any evidence that I could show you) that I am in the minority of men who could examine the detail in a photo of a fully-dressed women without it being an deliberate act of creepiness, but I continue to fear that my innocent actions might be misconstrued out of context.<br /><br />And I don't think I dismissed the guy's behaviour (that was certainly not my intention.) I acknowledge he sounds like a creep, and if he is, I don't want to be caught up in the same net as him.<br /><br />@Unbalanced Reaction,<br /><br />Your reaction is precisely the one I am politely asking people to avoid.<br /><br />First: that the guy is guilty (of "freaking creepiness") no matter what the evidence/reasons he could provide.<br /><br />Then: Because I suggested that not every photographer is a creep, I am labelled a creep? <br /><br />Can we please call off any witch-hunt before it starts?<br /><br /><br />@Anonymous #2, re: mansplaining<br /><br />According to the referenced page, the very act of denying that I am doing that would be used as proof that I was doing it. This comes across as an attempt to stifle the civil discussion we are having here, which disappoints me.Juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62152205459500872392010-05-09T19:14:47.621-05:002010-05-09T19:14:47.621-05:00Some of these commenters might want to read about ...Some of these commenters might want to read about mansplaining...<br /><br />http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/01/you_may_be_a_mansplainer_if.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75341197769383375992010-05-09T14:31:52.414-05:002010-05-09T14:31:52.414-05:00No matter the reasons behind it, it's still fr...No matter the reasons behind it, it's still freakin' creepy.<br /><br />And anyone here trying to justify or explain the behavior has a bit o' creep in them, too.Unbalanced Reactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407339711183651108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89667758391290883992010-05-09T09:26:42.463-05:002010-05-09T09:26:42.463-05:00I hope you've made a complaint to campus secur...I hope you've made a complaint to campus security with the guy's physical description. I'm sure it's not the first time he's pulled a creepy stunt, and according to statistics his behavior is likely to escalate with time. Having these incidents on record will help police/security issue him with a citation if he keeps this up or does worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77753658246550262462010-05-09T00:02:51.169-05:002010-05-09T00:02:51.169-05:00Generally speaking photography is permitted on pub...Generally speaking photography is permitted on public property: <br /><br />http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm<br /><br />However, a lecture hall, even on a public university campus, is *not* the same as public property (e.g., a downtown sidewalk). For example, the door to your office presumably has a lock, and you have some level of access control. <br /><br />I would talk to your security or campus police office, but I would also call the campus's public information/PR office. They are likely to be the most highly informed about what can and cannot be photographed on campus, how permissions work, etc. Finally, photgraphy aside, the photographer's *behavior* is clearly disruptive to the lecture, and so I'm as certain as a non-lawyer can be that the campus should have the capacity to act.Spiny Normanhttp://spinynorman.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63474376472440071082010-05-08T18:18:47.654-05:002010-05-08T18:18:47.654-05:00Creepy. I like the picture taking idea. Here's...Creepy. I like the picture taking idea. Here's a blog that does a similar thing for street harassment: <br />http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/<br /><br />There's a whole series of them "hollaback" for different cities.<br /><br />Mary, MDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87805789437891591202010-05-08T13:09:57.007-05:002010-05-08T13:09:57.007-05:00If I were you, I would probably speed dial campus ...If I were you, I would probably speed dial campus security and let them tell me if there is a campus rule (unknown to you) that applies in this case and whether they want to get his identification info just in case he has less than legal (under criminal or civil codes) motives that might put the university at risk. After the fact, I'd recommend asking campus security about the situation and what action they would recommend. <br /><br />There could very well be rules that would result in a trespass warning being issued. Our college has all sorts of rules passed by the Board under some broad legal authority granted by the legislature, and our security people have photos of persona non grata in their office. <br /><br />On the broader issue, I can see a market for a complete video showing data and methods from a conference. Someone could steal and publish that talk (or set of talks) as a paper in a journal no one knows about.Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-23570807937944763972010-05-08T11:13:44.465-05:002010-05-08T11:13:44.465-05:00Julian, the problem is that breasts (or a woman’s ...Julian, the problem is that breasts (or a woman’s chest, as FSP demurely puts it) are not neutral territory. You should go read the many entries out there in the blogosphere that debate the pros and cons of wearing "revealing" clothing for female scientists. There are always many male commenters who insist that they can’t help but look at a woman’s breasts. They are hard-wired to ogle! Blame evolution! And then there are some that say they always notice a woman’s breast but they’ve learned to be subtle. I’m sure some straight men don’t notice, but they sure seem to be in the minority. So, it’s very difficult for me to believe that any man would focus his camera on a woman’s chest and not be completely aware of what he is doing.<br /><br />You all should also read the posts in the blogosphere on the wretched experiences some women have had at conferences before you dismiss this guy’s behavior. Isis had one up recently that was very disturbing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-71216588259633595592010-05-08T06:09:18.207-05:002010-05-08T06:09:18.207-05:00Complete hearsay! The observer knows little, mere...Complete hearsay! The observer knows little, merely some off angle assessments of someone else's perspective. They don't know what was in the view finder, what the purpose was, who the photographer was or whether they were authorized or not. This is blatant hysteria and most of the commentors here, inappropriately whipped up and somewhat paranoid TV watchers, who are overly disturbed and using childish terms such as 'creepy'... a favorite amongst junior high students, need to get ahold of themselves and be rational. If this behavior bothers you, take it to the organizers and put it in their hands. It is THEIR responsibility to take action... or not. Quit building in the minds of others that hearsay testimony is PROOF, instead elicit a discovery process, go about correct procedure, keep a log of events and phenomena... try acting like scientists! ...not excited amateurs!~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91090444887916038172010-05-08T02:28:33.065-05:002010-05-08T02:28:33.065-05:00A few people seem to be taking my comment as decla...A few people seem to be taking my comment as declaring Photography Man innocent. That is not my position, although I am asking people to appreciate that not all photography = pornography, and not all photographers are creeps.<br /><br />Maybe I wasn't clear before. When I mentioned checking focus, I am talking about examining photos already taken. On my camera, the easiest part to zoom in on is the centre of the photograph, so I stand by the claim that I might innocently zoom in on someone's chest while checking focus, without any creepy intentions. <br /><br />I can see a clear distinction between that and deliberately taking upskirt photos, so that seems a strawman argument to me.<br /><br />The torso-only shot remains the creepiest part of this story. If I stretch, I suppose I *could* come up with some innocent explanation (photos taken blind overhead; he had already started zooming on an existing image when FSP looked at him). But that is not my intention. I am not defending him because he might well be a total creep, and if he was intimidating a speaker, he needs to be stopped.<br /><br />My intention is to highlight that some similar behaviour might be innocent; it is worth checking (as FSP wanted to do) before you decide he is guilty and take retribution.<br /><br />I don't know how many creeps you get at science conferences - especially as weird as this one is portrayed - but I know many non-creep photographers - and I am confident that most photographers at science conferences are not there for prurient reasons.<br /><br />If we assume everybody carrying a long lens is a creep, I think we all suffer and the intimidation cycle continues.Julianhttp://somethinkodd.com/oddthinkingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78015203860352238272010-05-07T23:58:12.394-05:002010-05-07T23:58:12.394-05:00The best thing to do is to start taking pictures o...The best thing to do is to start taking pictures of the voyeur the next time he comes to a talk. Better yet, have several people take pictures of him and maybe even get the speaker involved. Now that would be fun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59983307847440507852010-05-07T20:41:58.339-05:002010-05-07T20:41:58.339-05:00Presenting talks is part of our job. Thus, this ma...<i>Presenting talks is part of our job. Thus, this man's actions could be seen as creating a hostile work environment.</i> -- Amy<br /><br /><br />Bingo.Gingeralenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-38620965369979877672010-05-07T18:06:18.555-05:002010-05-07T18:06:18.555-05:00Mylar, I would find it creepy and inappropriate if...Mylar, I would find it creepy and inappropriate if someone stared at, or photographed, my crotch repeatedly. I find it hard to imagine, however, the circumstances in which I would end up emotionally scarred by the experience.<br /><br />(And before I get jumped on and told how it would all be different if it happened to me, as a physically abnormal foreigner in an generally ethnically-homogeneous and rather xenophobic society, I certainly get a *lot* of stares and uninvited comments on my appearance, and yes, people do sometimes take my photo in public.)James Annanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04318741813895533700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32988254148909806592010-05-07T15:25:23.761-05:002010-05-07T15:25:23.761-05:00this is creepy and inappropriate if that female sp...this is creepy and inappropriate if that female speaker was the ONLY speaker whom this photographer took pictures of. If he had done the same to many other speakers then that's alright. But if he did it to only this female speaker, that shows a hidden agenda beyond just doing his job as a photographerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18794126048302655972010-05-07T15:07:58.945-05:002010-05-07T15:07:58.945-05:00Anon at 12:33..
'it's just a pic?'.. ...Anon at 12:33..<br /><br />'it's just a pic?'.. SERIOUSLY? <br />I can say that if I ever found out I was being photographed invasively and inappropriately as in this case, I would be emotionally scarred by it. I hope that if he ever shows up again, you get security involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76862994847975320192010-05-07T14:30:25.710-05:002010-05-07T14:30:25.710-05:00I don't like when people object to something b...I don't like when people object to something but won't confront the other person directly (clearly not you, since you tried, although unsuccessfully, so I mean to say that you should still try to confront him on it so that he knows that you know what he's doing and is clear that if he persists you're gonna take it up with Authorities.)<br /><br />Assuming that he persists, I'd say it's documentation time. IMHO, "give him some of his own medicine" isn't right either and he may not care. Rather, take a high-res camera (so you can see what he's seeing on his camera) and record him with his picture-taking and talk to supervisor or ombudsperson or whatever with evidence (or invite supervisor/ombudsperson) to observe the picture-taking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85898298645880517182010-05-07T12:33:41.119-05:002010-05-07T12:33:41.119-05:00on these things... i think instincts are usually r...on these things... i think instincts are usually right. But come on... its just a pic... what harm can this guy do, unless you think he is a criminal or something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32538062020894344432010-05-07T12:03:46.090-05:002010-05-07T12:03:46.090-05:00There is no excuse for this! This guy is just a c...There is no excuse for this! This guy is just a creep and should be barred from attending future lectures at the university.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3258246182211638152010-05-07T08:54:42.226-05:002010-05-07T08:54:42.226-05:00When Photo Man shows up in the audience again, I&#...When Photo Man shows up in the audience again, I'd ask some security person to warn him that his obsessive actions have been distracting and inappropriate, and why. May as well just skip the step in which he wonders whether he'll be brought to attention of authorities if you talk with him directly, and I'd find him scary.<br /><br />It's generally a touchy subject of how to treat science groupies. Several places I've been had one or two people knowing little technical detail who like to listen and ask a random question or two. Some are donors, some Greenpeace fanatics, some have a long-standing grudge.<br /><br />Camera can be ever more invasive with the new lenses. More zoom and speed are possible, although the fastest, zoomiest lens are expensive and enormous.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.com