tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post2340632040405182415..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Terminal AssociateFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-2968503204850415812010-10-22T13:45:30.073-05:002010-10-22T13:45:30.073-05:00Hallelujah!
Value what you do, not what you are c...Hallelujah!<br /><br />Value what you do, not what you are called... value others based upon what they do, not upon what they are called.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22381011477053747202009-11-10T20:13:10.913-06:002009-11-10T20:13:10.913-06:00I am a tenured associate professor in 'hard sc...I am a tenured associate professor in 'hard science' at a major research institution (part of that cluster famous for the Ivy on the walls). I've been an associate professor for ~5 years. <br /><br />Recently, my chair asked about timetable for promotion. S/he fell to the floor (almost) when I replied "I could care squat about promotion to full professor". Seriously - who cares? There are two motivations I can think of for wanting promotion. (1) money, and/or (2) ego. I get paid more than enough in my current position, and anyone who thinks a different academic title means anything is delusional. <br /><br />I'm an associate professor. I write 3-4 good solid papers a year (have about 60-70 so far, 2 books, and a bunch of book chapters), do my share of teaching, edit for a couple of journals, get grants when I feel like it, and supervise students if they're good and I feel like it. I shift research gears with some frequency, pursuing what interests me. I go to meetings if I feel like it, not as a career move. That, of course, is the point of tenure. I do what I want, more or less. <br /><br />The university system is predicated on people striving for promotion, for 2 reasons. One, the bean counters and political types in the university administration understand that outside of academics, like government agencies, alumni groups, and other folks who might have $$$ to give to the school, title carries gravitas. A lot of universities make a big deal out of the number of 'full professors'. Second, and more to the point, they want the lure of promotion to keep you active - not at anything as trivial as 'intellectual work', but...getting grants. Pure and simple. Without overhead off major grants, universities would crash and burn - so, how do you keep everyone motivated to keep playing the grant game? Hold out the lure of the 'perks' of being a full professor.<br /><br />Problem is, the system doesn't account for people who could care less about money, or title. People who publish just fine without a lot of $$$ rolling in. People like me. I'm doing what I want to do now. I loathe administrative assignments, and if doing them is a necessary step on the road to 'full' title, I'll pass.JCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-42052624879614680502009-03-17T12:05:00.000-05:002009-03-17T12:05:00.000-05:00Gosh - I am only recently realizing people worry t...Gosh - I am only recently realizing people worry that much about making Full. So much struggle beforehand to have even a foothold ... people who have making Full as a thing to worry about must live in the land of milk and honey indeed!<BR/><BR/>My father & other relatives were UC profs and these things were a lot less stressful there because there was a system in place, written rules that were actually followed, and so on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32878129446467953792009-03-17T08:35:00.000-05:002009-03-17T08:35:00.000-05:00University of California puts Associates up for Fu...University of California puts Associates up for Full professor reviews almost automatically, but it is rare for anyone to get the "Above Scale" step (though that varies from campus to campus, as the state support for the campuses is far from uniform---UCB and UCLA get far more money per student than UCSC or UCR).<BR/><BR/>All the "terminal associates" at UC have either turned down the opportunity to advance to full or been denied the promotion. There are rather few of them, and most of the ones I've met were men hired in the 60s and 70s who were not interested in doing research.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-51962636167333934322009-03-10T20:42:00.000-05:002009-03-10T20:42:00.000-05:00In my department, I guess there is some added pres...In my department, I guess there is some added prestige to the Full Professor title but it is not considered a negative to remain an Associate Professor. The Associates are generally productive, scholarly people - at least as productive if not more productive than some Full Professors. In some cases, the Full rank just comes with lots of extra work/responsibility for not much extra reward (e.g., money) so it's undesirable for some folks uninterested in fancy titles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-6878998607990599102009-03-09T17:39:00.000-05:002009-03-09T17:39:00.000-05:00I knew a case where the terminal associate publis...I knew a case where the terminal associate published very successful and lucrative undergrad textbooks and his colleagues resented it. No research productivity was the excuse. A great teacher, too. He retired rich and happy.<BR/><BR/>Big 10 profAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-44281465028564179592009-03-07T19:04:00.000-06:002009-03-07T19:04:00.000-06:00People who are getting ready to retire now were hi...People who are getting ready to retire now were hired in the late sixties and seventies. At that time there were few women in STEM departments, and those who were there, as was the case for Ginger Rodgers, had to do the same as the guys, but dancing backwards and in high heels. In other words they had to be super to survive. Those who were not did not get hired, and if hired did not get tenure. In some cases being super was not enough.<BR/><BR/>Residual sexism certainly made it much harder for women to get tenure until recently. We can argue about the date, however the point is that there were few terminal associate women hired at times when they would now be old enough to be called terminal associates. As departments become more balanced this will change.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-80664363412945338682009-03-07T05:27:00.000-06:002009-03-07T05:27:00.000-06:00'terminal associate' - sounds like some kind of di...'terminal associate' - sounds like some kind of disease. At the very least it has a negative ring to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21607079998804949122009-03-06T22:01:00.000-06:002009-03-06T22:01:00.000-06:00Is it better to ask to be considered for promotion...Is it better to ask to be considered for promotion but then fail the evaluation, or to not ask and remain an associate for 10+ or more years?<BR/><BR/>In other words, if you ask to be promoted but subsequently fail the evaluation will you get kicked out of the department and be out of a job? Is that why some people never push to be promoted and just stay associates for many years because they're afraid of what could happen if they were to fail the 'test'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-68214866802673013982009-03-05T23:23:00.000-06:002009-03-05T23:23:00.000-06:00Hope: You reminded me that at MIT, I often saw pro...Hope: You reminded me that at MIT, I often saw profs routinely being promoted to full prof 4 years after tenure. (MIT promotes to associate prof first, then grants tenure in the normalish 6-year timeframe).<BR/><BR/>All of the terminal associates I can think of (not at MIT) are men, but I don't know that many female faculty to start with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-50852579820587670222009-03-05T20:38:00.000-06:002009-03-05T20:38:00.000-06:00I work in a Science department at a Large US Resea...I work in a Science department at a Large US Research University. Our department does indeed have a number of people who look like they will be terminal associates, but all of them are men.<BR/><BR/>There are several women in our department (not as many as there could be, mind you), and they are, without exception, extremely active. There is no sign that the few associate profs among them will stay associate very long.<BR/><BR/>In fact, almost all the women I know in my field are active. I can think of lots of people I would characterize as dead wood, in many different departments, but only a couple of them are women. Outside of my department I am not sure how many of these active women are getting passed up for promotion to full professor, but the couple of web pages I checked before writing this post were all of people who were either full professors, or simply too recently tenured to be full professors.<BR/><BR/>My completely unscientific hypothesis is that this is due to selective pressure: my field has few women and most of those that make it into to tenure position have already mastered the balance of their work and family lives. They don't slow down significantly the way I see many of their male colleagues do.<BR/><BR/>Another significant possibility is that the people I *know* are exactly the active ones. Those not-so-active terminal associates... well, I never meet them at conferences.<BR/><BR/>But I definitely have not seen evidence for the "active yet associate forever" phenomenon that FSP mentions in her post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18195359333022145812009-03-05T20:05:00.000-06:002009-03-05T20:05:00.000-06:00Sorry, misspoke. I should have said Above Scale r...Sorry, misspoke. I should have said Above Scale rather than off-scale for the final step at which letters are required in the UC system.<BR/><BR/>I just verified these 5 stages requiring letters:<BR/><BR/>Letters of reference normally are required for all appointments and promotions and advancement to Professor, Step VI and to Professor, Above Scale.<BR/><BR/>http://www.ap.uci.edu/APP/3-60_meritdoc.htmlJohn Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3839120888727699382009-03-05T19:58:00.000-06:002009-03-05T19:58:00.000-06:00For Margaret LPromotion in the UC is a fair bit of...For Margaret L<BR/><BR/>Promotion in the UC is a fair bit of work.<BR/><BR/>From Innovative Higher Education, Vol. 24, No. 1, Fall 1999:<BR/><BR/>Each year about 1/3 of the faculty are reviewed. The review is initiated in the fall and should be complete by late spring when the professor is notified of the outcome. There is a tremendous workload of files to be assembled. Large departments may have several colleagues eligible for merit or promotion the same year. This creates a huge workload for department staff and for department faculty colleagues as well as for the deans and faculty Committees on Academic Personnel. In addition, departments may be hiring new faculty who must also be reviewed."<BR/><BR/>My recollection is that letters are required for hiring, tenure, promotion to full, full step V to VI, and advancing off-scale. And not just 2 or 3 letters. Much less effort is involved at my current institution than I saw at UCLA in my decade there.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7345955695400169572009-03-05T19:42:00.000-06:002009-03-05T19:42:00.000-06:00Ms.PhD:It just highlights to me how many more oppo...<B>Ms.PhD</B>:<I>It just highlights to me how many more opportunities I will have to be screwed over by sexism if I stay in academia.</I><BR/><BR/>Care to elaborate on just what the potential sexism is?<BR/><BR/>I am interested because although I am male, sometimes I hear arguments that a system should be reformed this way or that way, because the current way it is set up is sexist.<BR/><BR/>I often agree with many of the proposed reforms...but purely out of self-interest! Say I think a certain policy change would make a university faculty a into a better place for my young, male, in-search-of-faculty-position self. And then I hear that the most common argument <I>for</I> said policy change is that the current policy is sexist.<BR/><BR/>I'll admit it: I hesitate to embrace "change it because it's sexist" types of arguments. I worry: will it make me seem like some kind of crusader more committed to women's causes than my own research? I'd love to add my voice to a chorus of people saying "change it because its just <I>bad</I>", but sometimes people don't seem to be saying that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-976418479832459012009-03-05T15:48:00.000-06:002009-03-05T15:48:00.000-06:00Our terminal associates are all Old Men. A couple ...Our terminal associates are all Old Men. A couple of them teach a fair bit, and one of them is not bad at it. <BR/><BR/>The other teaches one 3 credit class per year (not per semester, per year) by printing and reading notes (no lab). The rest is "service" which seems to consist primarily in surfing the internet and making coffee. <BR/><BR/>I wonder how it will go for me...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7020159144317073432009-03-05T14:49:00.000-06:002009-03-05T14:49:00.000-06:00For John, from the previous post (which I assume n...For John, from the previous post (which I assume no-one's reading anymore):<BR/><BR/>UC only has slightly more external reviews than other places. There is a mid-career review before tenure, and full professors can go up for Super Duper Professor (I forget what it's really called, "Step 6" or something memorable like that). But most of our regular merit reviews (which happen every other year!) don't involve external letters.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, there are an awful lot of us! You can't swing a cat without hitting a UC professor who's up for review.<BR/><BR/>On topic, we have two terminal associates in my department. One just retired this year, very very early. Neat guy, energetic, fabulous department citizen. I don't know what was behind his low productivity. The other is still attempting to be active, but I strongly suspect he suffers from depression. Both male.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-86440665883780990322009-03-05T14:43:00.000-06:002009-03-05T14:43:00.000-06:00There's one component you missed: service. In som...There's one component you missed: service. In some departments (not mine, but I've seen this), female associate professors end up running programs or taking on other time-intensive administrative commitments, none of which counts for much when promotions are looming. They're valuable to the department in that they do a ton of work that makes the place run but not "valuable" in that elusive full professor way.undinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589384016564587214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17281875829486613422009-03-05T13:51:00.000-06:002009-03-05T13:51:00.000-06:00How long does it usually take for someone to make ...How long does it usually take for someone to make the jump from associate to full? From assistant to tenure, I understand that it is about 6 yrs. Is it another 6 before the next promotion? Are the criteria for this promotion made clear by the dept? In my EE dept, I've seen profs making the jump at 3 yrs, and more than a few at 10+ yrs. These were all men. The few women around are, as one commenter noted, older and full profs or younger and up and coming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-72889506789427035742009-03-05T13:18:00.000-06:002009-03-05T13:18:00.000-06:00I think you are missing option #5, which is that t...I think you are missing option #5, which is that the professor planned to relax after tenure from day one. I met two cases like this, one at a major research university. The faculty decided to take a hobbie to a semi-professional level, and reduced his academic activity to the minimum required (teaching, service, and very little research). People in his department were extremely upset because it was obvious that it was something planned.<BR/>At my current university, we have an associate professor who says that his first priority is to be able to practice an outdoor sport that requires him to leave the university for several days at particular times of the year. He hasn't had a graduate student in years, but manages to co-author a paper now and then by participating of research discussions of other professors in the department.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12331408876765980402009-03-05T13:17:00.000-06:002009-03-05T13:17:00.000-06:00Another timely and accurate post, synthesizing a c...Another timely and accurate post, synthesizing a complex situation.<BR/><BR/>Not sure of the details, I checked my present and past departments. There was one terminal Associate in each (out of 20-30 tenure-track people), and one of the two was marginal, a hybrid position. Terminal Associates in the research staff have less clear meaning.<BR/><BR/>The battle of standards vs collegiality, while ensuring fairness, is tough. I try (unsuccessfully) to avoid promotion discussions.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-60326742797805476022009-03-05T12:48:00.000-06:002009-03-05T12:48:00.000-06:00I found this post depressing. It just highlights t...I found this post depressing. It just highlights to me how many more opportunities I will have to be screwed over by sexism if I stay in academia. <BR/><BR/>It reminded me of one FSP I know in particular, who spent 15 years as an associate despite continuing to produce consistently good publications, graduate students and postdocs. She finally left for a full professor position at another university, but had to make some major personal sacrifices to do it (her kids are still here, and she has to commute back on the weekends to see them). To me, it seems like a nightmare.<BR/><BR/>And yet, with the job market the way it is, most of us don't have the luxury of trying to find a good department to join- we'll have to take any department that makes us an offer, and then hope for the best. But I'm too cynical to believe I'd be lucky enough to find somewhere that would not be sexist.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87821374311712953442009-03-05T12:00:00.000-06:002009-03-05T12:00:00.000-06:00Everyone seems to think that promotion is a good i...Everyone seems to think that promotion is a good idea. It certainly has its advantages, but it is not without its downsides. I'm thinking of costs of the application process, and costs of the consequences of being promoted.<BR/><BR/>At one job (equivalent to a tenure-track), the tenure-equivalent procedure was so poorly-managed and stressful, that I didn't ever want to go through anything like that again, and guess which committee and similar procedure also dealt with promotions? Yup, you got it. <BR/><BR/>Even at best, you've still got some kind of application procedure to follow, which will take some precious time away from dealing with the academic work avalanche. For those of us who hate writing such self-promotional things, that ain't a speedy task.<BR/><BR/>At another job, I did apply for promotion, and get it, only to find that the extra responsibilities that came along with the promotion were too much, not compensated for enough by a reduced workload in other areas. So I applied for (and got) demotion. A little unorthodox, but still.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54757325843950187532009-03-05T11:24:00.000-06:002009-03-05T11:24:00.000-06:00Mine is another university where it is really up t...Mine is another university where it is really up to the would-be candidate, and some people just never decide to promote themselves.<BR/><BR/>Also, pay raise aside (which may not be a motivation for everyone) it's not obvious to me that there is any intrinsic value in getting rid of the adjective altogether. It seems like it just means even more commmittee work and other administrative service and if you're not into that, why invite it?<BR/><BR/>I could easily see myself as a terminal associate . . . I did not enjoy putting together my documents and dossier for promotion to associate, and strongly felt I could have used the energy consumed by the preparation for something vastly more interesting, and I don't see that I would have a great desire to repeat that process unless I had to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-10749425613284666312009-03-05T10:54:00.000-06:002009-03-05T10:54:00.000-06:00The best laboratory teacher I ever had was a termi...The best laboratory teacher I ever had was a terminal associate. He had stopped getting grants and now worked on building instruments while another professor got the grants and ran the center. He was great at working in the lab and building things and teaching other people to do these things, but his main pleasure was building the device rather than using it to analyze something and answer a scientific question. I worked in his lab for 2 years and had a blast. He also taught senior lab, which was my favorite class (and that's saying something coming from a theorist!), but he was awful in lecture.<BR/><BR/>So, basically, he had found an important scientific niche that just didn't bring much glory. He was valuable but not glorious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3969661550441015412009-03-05T09:11:00.000-06:002009-03-05T09:11:00.000-06:00Most of the terminal associates I know are women.I...<I>Most of the terminal associates I know are women.</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting observation! In the Swedish universities where I have been (I'm currently in the UK, but haven't been here long enough to have formed an impression on the matter) nearly all of those I would call "terminal associates", or the closest equivalent thereof, have been men, and almost always over 50. They have little or no research output, but take a heavy teaching load (and are often, but far from always, good and well-liked teachers), often also taking care of the administrative work around the teaching.<BR/><BR/>Securely permanent (as opposed to the usual "permanent") positions are very, very few, and today it is almost impossible to stay in academia with teaching as your main activity. It leaves little or no room for those whose skills lie in teaching and science communication. Anyone under the age of 50 today must concentrate on research.<BR/><BR/>Women, while unfortunately few, tend to be either older and on high positions (full professors) or young and rising fast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com