tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post5812007790565370793..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Dodging a Postdoctoral BulletFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37556216059285400422014-07-23T16:03:32.739-05:002014-07-23T16:03:32.739-05:00In response to
"Dodging a Postdoctoral Bullet...In response to<br />"Dodging a Postdoctoral Bullet"<br /><br />Hmmm... I was confused at first because I read the post on blogspot.co.uk, and I assumed it was a UK post. The confusion came with the talk of benefits... the only benefits I get are the fantastic people (mostly) I get to work with.<br /><br />But they're mostly mad as a brush - I don' know whether it's because you have to be mad to start with or because the PhD process makes you that way - and have sacrificed so much of their lives to their vocation.<br /><br />My experience in the UK is this: some PhD students take a pay-cut when they graduate, because while their salary is larger than their stipend was, they suddenly have to start paying taxes and so are taking home less net per month.<br /><br />Benefits? What, using the printer for free? Academic research must be very different in the states! I'm no longer a postdoc (technically) but I'm on he same pay grade ... near the top (after 8 years post doc) ... and I make over £36k, around $63k. I got offered a job in industry in London... they wanted to pay me £90k (over $150k). It was a 9-5. Comparatively, academia in UK is poor pay for very long hours.<br /><br />But I don't wanna live in London. And I don't particularly want to leave academia. But I sure as hell don't wanna be a postdoc anymore. If you work out what I got per hour (for the hours I worked, not what I was contracted) it's around $15/hour. I came out of uni ("grad school") with over $30k debt, and that's what I have to show for it? We sure don't do it for the money! I'd've been better off in Kwiksave.<br /><br />Now I'm a lab manager involved in a mass-spec soon-to-be SRF. It's fantastic. I feel like I'm achieving something for the first time in my career. Even though I have papers, including in Cell, it never actually feels like an achievement, because we never get to stop and enjoy it. Being a postdoc is crap. A crap job for crap pay. With no future unless to wanna be a PI. The only up-side is knowing that somehow, in some small way, you might be contributing to society. Perhaps. Maybe.<br /><br />http://scigomad.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/in-response-to-dodging-postdoctoral.htmlJimihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10830904378226599882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59244474755484023042014-05-07T03:43:12.001-05:002014-05-07T03:43:12.001-05:00Oh, the perils of hiring a mediocre postdoc!
I...Oh, the perils of hiring a mediocre postdoc!<br /><br />I'd take that any day over struggling to pay off my debt with my less-than-mediocre postdoc salary. Way to be whiny, professor!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52303143721235146322014-03-30T02:50:21.951-05:002014-03-30T02:50:21.951-05:00I think you are a cheap employer that is complaini...I think you are a cheap employer that is complaining about the workforce, when the workforce is getting minimum wages to do the most likely irrelevant work that you do. You should consider yourself lucky for having a position, so don't whine about postdocs, you would be nothing without them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8622120546624377122014-02-24T03:29:11.884-06:002014-02-24T03:29:11.884-06:00As a former post-doc I find these situations funny...As a former post-doc I find these situations funny. Professors (in most cases) only have limited funding, so they prize every dollar spent. Post-docs feel undervalued because compared to their friends who are engineers, got industry jobs after undergrad, or got a sweet gig after a masters they're making peanuts. So one side is saying "man you're lucky you're getting anything at all." The other side is saying "jeeze, why the low pay?". This situation comes form a lack of funding at the top which puts a stranglehold on postdoc positions. It's sad really. Because it pushes good scientists away from the field. Yet many PI's not realizing this think they're "sorting through the good and hard working postdocs". This is of course false. They are sorting through the leftovers after everyone else jumped to industry. Thus finding bad apples is more common...and really the problem with "lazy" postdocs is that you don't have enough funding to support them...not necessarily that they're crap scientists. Certainly they've been more productive than a huge percentage of the general population.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7764454629865476562014-02-12T12:02:04.970-06:002014-02-12T12:02:04.970-06:00I agree, the author sounds like a very self-righte...I agree, the author sounds like a very self-righteous person. I wouldn't want to work with someone like this in no ways.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9874177410505879882014-01-22T22:37:12.003-06:002014-01-22T22:37:12.003-06:00You come across as a completely obnoxious, self-ri...You come across as a completely obnoxious, self-righteous professor. Just remember that hiring a post-doc is a two-way street. You may be judging the post-doc, but the post-doc is also judging you based on the quality of your research and your scientific acumen. Unless you are perfect in those areas, how can your expect your post-doc candidate to be perfect as well? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85966675485530202082013-11-25T07:42:14.037-06:002013-11-25T07:42:14.037-06:00I concur with the idea of hiring for 3 months and ...I concur with the idea of hiring for 3 months and looking what comes out of it. Interviews stress the hell out of me and I always seem to say a wrong thing. However I got into my PhD program by going in and working. Since working is something I do infinitely better than being interviewed, and I'm actually quite normal in a normal setting, everything went fine, I got the position, I got nice papers out of it. Now however I have the same problem applying for postdocs... I think people who get the jobs are not necessarily those who show to work, but those who present nicely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-63931909920150887562011-11-29T14:44:03.467-06:002011-11-29T14:44:03.467-06:00Well, i can contribute from both perspectives, hav...Well, i can contribute from both perspectives, having been a recent postdoc and currently a lecturer. while i sympathise with the Prof about finding god postdocs, i have to make the point of finding good Profs to work for as well. your article is very much one sided, which is fair enough as it is a blog, but have you never been there? some of your descriptions are very simplistic and outdated. for instance, the wage discussion. a good wage should not be one where the salary is higher than a grad student. this is obvious. a good wage should be characterised by being compatible to the candidate going to full time work outside academia. in addition, 1-3 years and then moving to a faculty job is not at all typical. in physics, it is now late thirties, and 3-4 postdocs. in engineering 2-3 postdocs. so candidates should not be viewed as some kids who did their phd, but professionals who actually choose to work for you. now the that viewpoint changes things. it is a two-client problem, and not only some poor should having to live up to the standards of the prof. in the article your only criterion seems to be publications. do you promise them that you will support them, find funding for their ideas, let them publish without being over-controlling? do you promise them your time, or if that is not possible, independence? teaching experience? these are things i would look for when i was a postdoc. the truth is today's postdocs are very bitter, among other things, because there are no jobs. they work very hard as a result, but many wont get through. not because they are not good, but because there are no jobs. and this situation is taken as an advantage point by many profs who have actually 'made it'. there are a lot of profs who abuse their postdocs and use them as cheap labour. so please excuse the former postdoc who gets emotional when hearing about the lazy postdocs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83543924262371157942010-12-13T09:06:00.635-06:002010-12-13T09:06:00.635-06:00It might be irrelevant now but we post-docs have t...It might be irrelevant now but we post-docs have the same problems! It is so difficult to find a good supervisor / professor / tutor. I have been working since finishing my Masters in different labs across Europe and I can tell you there are probably good supervisors out there but surprisingly I never had one... it is so difficult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26779115773352561262010-11-22T10:04:57.018-06:002010-11-22T10:04:57.018-06:00An idea: Ignore the reference letters... these are...An idea: Ignore the reference letters... these are meant to say only good things. Invite the potential postdoc for 3 months to your lab. This way you will get to know if you can work with him/she. Do not trust opinions from your colleges, because we all are different and different people get along with different people, and finally some people do not really say unbiased appraisals about others. Even my comment is biased: I hate slackers who get themselves by academia just because of their shiny reference letters or sexy-looking passports.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-53696732154852273652010-09-27T14:34:40.745-05:002010-09-27T14:34:40.745-05:00I would say to any PIs out there who do not at lea...<i>I would say to any PIs out there who do not at least reply to inquiries from postdoctoral applicants -- it demonstrates a clear lack of tact and professionalism to not give a reply. It takes about 3 seconds and costs nothing to send a form email that you are not taking postdoctoral applicants at the moment.</i><br /><br />Sadly, so many of these are spam. I just got a letter from someone asking to do a postdoc with me. He's not even in the same discipline as me (or even two standard deviations away. For example, I do graph theory and he is a Milton scholar). There is exactly zero overlap whatsoever. His cover letter is clearly a form letter that he's probably sent to every single person in my department. (We get a ton of these). Honestly, I don't see it as a lack of professionalism to not reply. For all I know it's a spam bot and by replying I'll suddenly be getting viagra offers 24/7. <br /><br />And even if this guy isn't a spam bot, he's demonstrating a lack of professionalism by clearly not doing 30 seconds of research to find out that neither I, nor anyone in my department, does anything remotely close to Milton.Female Computer Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445505185253882833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-60766007908793140442010-09-27T13:39:53.839-05:002010-09-27T13:39:53.839-05:00I would say to any PIs out there who do not at lea...I would say to any PIs out there who do not at least reply to inquiries from postdoctoral applicants -- it demonstrates a clear lack of tact and professionalism to not give a reply. It takes about 3 seconds and costs nothing to send a form email that you are not taking postdoctoral applicants at the moment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-24995864044102817962010-09-23T23:22:15.816-05:002010-09-23T23:22:15.816-05:00Salary issues set aside and to be honest I'd a...Salary issues set aside and to be honest I'd act the same way you did in both cases you described, I'd like to bring to your attention one thing, taking the word of someone whom the applicant didn't mention as his referee.<br /><br /> I had a similar case, I switched supervisors during my PhD. The first one was really a d**k but a careful one, a total d**k to those beneath him and always flattering those above him. Most of his senior colleagues naturally have a good impression about him (including his ex-supervisors) but he has a very bad reputation among his peers and a horrible rep among his students & postdocs.<br /><br /> I don't believe in right & wrong it's usually a clash of conflicting interests. However, in that case I was right, proven by subsequent publications. For the record the ex-supervisor got in trouble with the university (didn't get fired though), not because I asked that but rather because he was intelligent enough to call names my director of studies because he approved my supervisor change on the basis of new interests.<br /><br /> When asked why I stopped working with him, I say something which is only partly true that my interests changed. I'm not interested in saying an old story about a collaboration that didn't work out for whatever reasons and to be honest, if I was the interviewer and saw someone being a sorry ass and a crybaby at that age I'd send him back to kindergarden instead of hiring him.<br /><br /> Time is money and I don't find it fruitful nor interesting telling a crybaby story, even if it indeed had a negative impact on my work. I want to be positive.<br /><br /> The thing is that I applied to a position where the interviewer asked me if I had worked with anyone else in the past (apart from my supervisor & referees). Denying facts is silly, so I said with whom I worked, what I worked on and why I switched supervisors (new interests, not a crybaby story).<br /><br /> The rest of the interview went well, I answered all his technical questions, we went through my CV which I was told he found impressive and we also found common ground for future research.<br /><br /> I am in position to know the interviewer changed his mind 100% when he talked to my formed supervisor.<br /><br /> I might have done the same thing however what I want to point out is that when an applicant doesn't mention a certain person as a referee, there may be reasons why he doesn't want to include him.<br /><br /> I can understand why you asked your colleague and I'd probably do the same thing. However, since (s)he's not listed as a referee by the applicant, no matter how well you know him, my advice would be to take everything (s)he said with a grain of salt, as sometimes personal relations & politics interfere with judgement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8142555642339151332010-09-21T12:28:54.665-05:002010-09-21T12:28:54.665-05:00Here is the best I could find, from this study in ...Here is the best I could find, from this study in 2004: http://www.sigmaxi.org/postdoc/highlights.pdf<br /><br />To summarize, some quotes:<br />"more than 50,000<br />people hold postdoctoral appointments in the United States.<br />Most are doing research in the life or health sciences, but 22 percent are in the physical sciences or engineering, and 4<br />percent are working in the social sciences or humanities.<br />We contacted 46 institutions, and we ultimately heard back from more than 7,600 Postdocs.<br />The NSF found that the median salary for postdocs was only $28,000 in 1995. Since then, funding organizations, both public and private, have made a considerable effort to increase postdoc stipends, and<br />many universities have followed suit. As a result, compensation has increased considerably. The median salary for respondents to our survey is $38,000 in 2004.<br />"<br /><br />So I guess post-docs that make 45-60k + benefits, retirements and moving expenses paid exist and maybe common in some fields, but they still can't be consider as the "usual post-doc condition".<br /><br />For the record, I am also now part of the system, and pretty happy with it. Still, I hope that I won't say in a few years to post-doc "I didn't really enjoy my time as a post-doc, so I can't see any reason why you should enjoy yours. My only advice will be to suck it, you whiny baby. Because I made it, it means that it's doable and a good system".mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41902859024026947572010-09-21T09:32:30.936-05:002010-09-21T09:32:30.936-05:00One more data point for what it's worth. I am...One more data point for what it's worth. I am midcareer tenured faculty. I did do a postdoc, a little over 10 years ago. The situation in my field (at the intersection of physical and earth sciences) was similar then to what it is now. So I do know pretty much exactly what current postdocs in my field are experiencing.<br /><br />In our field postdoc pay averages around $50K right now, in our expensive city it's a little higher, but most of them get subsidized university apartments (pretty good deal for this city, though still not cheap by broader US standards). Often moving expenses are covered - I certainly have covered them myself in many cases.<br /><br />Having been a grad student and postdoc not all that long ago, I think that it is simultaneously true that the system can abuse grad students and postdocs for cheap labor while not offering a guarantee of a career, and that many grad students and (perhaps to a lesser extent) postdocs are leeches on the system who use up a lot of resources (even if their take-home pay is low by some standards) while doing little and enjoying the freedom that comes from not having a "real" job. Which is true (and of course in many happy situations it is neither) depends on the situation.<br /><br />At my institutions grad students are paid over $30K, the cost to my grant is pushing $70K. Postdoc now costs me over $100K, for them getting typically in the low-mid $50's. <br /><br />I also get lots of postdoc requests and only take seriously the few that seem like they really know something about what I do and would stand a chance of contributing to it. I do try to answer all but the spammiest ones at least briefly though.<br /><br />Finally, in my field while TT jobs are scarce compared to those who nominally want them, it is not as competitive as some other fields (e.g. bio) and it does seem to me that most of those who are truly good - ambitious, creative, hard working, willing to actually do the job with all its burdens, and lacking in major personality defects - get them eventually (sometimes quickly) if they try. You can say that is just someone who has become part of the system defending it if you like, or you can take a moment to think about whether your own perspective is any less biased by personal circumstances...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76903604612641579132010-09-21T09:11:58.245-05:002010-09-21T09:11:58.245-05:00Not sure why so many are talking past each other. ...Not sure why so many are talking past each other. It's clear that there are vast differences in postdoc pay between disciplines. In my field (astronomy), current postdocs typically run $45K-$60K with benefits and retirement. I don't know the official statistics on faculty hires; the ones I know of run from $75K to $95K for 9 months.<br /><br />That anyone is pursuing a career in an NIH field (where the average age of a first grant as a PI is now 42!) is amazing to me. It sounds awful and hardly surprising that so many postdocs are unhappy.<br /><br />Regarding FSP's original question: in a hire we did two years ago, we offered to two postdocs who had come out of the same program. Though both had strong applications, one was the clear frontrunner, with a very strong letter from his advisor, direct experience in fields wherein we wanted to add depth, etc. Well, the second is now a star while the first is fairly unproductive, complains about work when he is assigned it, and has expressed an interest in dropping work in the area we most wanted him to work on. In retrospect, the things that might have tipped us off were a) extended interviews in advance with both candidates and b) close attention to the secondary letters of reference. <br /><br />On the other hand, while everyone wants the perfect postdoc, there are so many variables involved (not the least, personality matches between colleagues) that you are going to win some and lose some.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-35786085345355753952010-09-21T01:10:52.359-05:002010-09-21T01:10:52.359-05:00Current university-mandated minimum postdoc salary...Current university-mandated minimum postdoc salary for a new postdoc at Stanford University is $42,223. This is the MINIMUM across the whole campus including the Medical School. Postdocs in engineering disciplines tend to be paid more. In my lab, the range is $45-55,000 depending on level of experience.<br /><br />http://postdocs.stanford.edu/handbook/salary.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-51329043992362401592010-09-20T18:48:08.107-05:002010-09-20T18:48:08.107-05:00FSP, Indeed this can be a worrisome situation. I b...FSP, Indeed this can be a worrisome situation. I believe we have one of the post-docs you describe in the lab. But I wonder, how do you sort out if the info you are receiving on the down low is accurate vs the info in the reference letters/info coming from the candidate? I mean, how do you know the secret people you are talking to arent misleading you against the candidate? I can think of numerous instances in which numerous people I know (PIs, admins, grad students, post-docs) would bitterly do just this.Februahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04453691652082089448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59609481430025481862010-09-20T12:04:17.833-05:002010-09-20T12:04:17.833-05:00Whoa whoa whoa...engineers straight out of school ...Whoa whoa whoa...engineers straight out of school DO NOT make 120k. Maybe two out of every 10,000 get hired at Google and do ok, but I doubt even google would pay that much to someone with no experience.<br /><br />Let's put the avg entry-level engineer pay between 45-60k, depending on where you live. That's generally a lot better, a lot easier, and requires a lot fewer years of education than for a postdoc to make that much. But engineering (or being a lawyer or doctor) is probably the exception. Granted you're getting paid crap for all the years you went to school, but presumably you have more job security than any of your non-academic friends. That said, a very good friend of mine is a post-doc. She makes quite a bit less than me and works 12 hour days average, sometimes up to 18 hours. I don't think expecting students to be "grateful" for crap pay plus the mindbending hours expected of most grad students and post-docs is having reasonable expectations.FrauTechhttp://frautech.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-31644744516538384722010-09-20T10:27:46.830-05:002010-09-20T10:27:46.830-05:00"All the PI's were postdocs too and lived...<i>"All the PI's were postdocs too and lived in shit just like you do and came out the other end."</i><br /><br />While as a PI, I appreciate this defense, it is factually incorrect. Many faculty in engineering schools were never postdocs. Some were even hired directly into tenure from industry without ever going through the assistant professor stage (this seems to me to be the biggest source of professional failures among engineering and business school faculty).<br /><br />Postdocs are rare in the fields in which there are industrial jobs. The prevalence of postdocs in a field indicate an overproduction of PhDs relative to what the field (academic and industrial combined) can absorb efficiently, and an over-reliance on grant-funded low-cost labor. The postdoc positions are the equivalent of the contract instructor positions on the teaching side: useful as training, dangerous if they replace full-time long-term teaching and research positions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3939774425815679892010-09-20T09:52:13.692-05:002010-09-20T09:52:13.692-05:00Anonymous channelling CPP:
Everyone seems to treat...Anonymous channelling CPP:<br />Everyone seems to treat the PI's as though they are some strange beings from outer space who could not possibly understand the poor postdocs' circumstances. Grow up! All the PI's were postdocs too and lived in shit just like you do and came out the other end. No one handed them the keys to the Kingdom of TT just because. And you make what you make en route to TT, that's the deal. Fuckin' whiny babies.<br /><br /><br /><br />Well, I disagree. It is not because some survived the "live in shit" (as you said) with success and without complaining that others who would like to change things and point the issues are fuckin' whiny babies or jealous losers...<br /><br />It is always like that: people that didn't like a system become its more proactive defender once they managed to get into it...mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-47288203399167549572010-09-20T04:54:44.162-05:002010-09-20T04:54:44.162-05:00Some of these comments from postdocs are bizarre. ...Some of these comments from postdocs are bizarre. People say (from personal experience) that there are decently paid postdocs, in good situations and other postdocs just flatly deny the possibility? Perhaps in your dicipline/country, that is the case, but there are obviously fields and locations where it is a good life. I'm in my first year of postdoc, and my income allows me to spend less than a third of my take-home pay on renting a two bedroom inner city apartment in one of the most expensive cities in my (non-US) country. Some of you may not have it so good, but stop speaking for all postdocs.Becnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-26040022451565767822010-09-20T03:50:32.383-05:002010-09-20T03:50:32.383-05:00FSP: "Can we just assume I am talking about p...FSP: "Can we just assume I am talking about postdocs who make $45-70k and move on for now? (with all due sympathy to those who do not make a 'living' wage for their geographic/family situations)"<br /><br />Dave: The majority of postdocs I have met make between 30k and 40k, and the vast, vast majority between 30k and 50k. <br /><br />Though this is a bit late, I have to say that I am exactly like Dave. In my Materials Science Department, post-docs were paid between 35-40k, and it is said to be one of the best departments in the field in the US.<br />My girlfriend was a post-doc at the Harvard Medical School and she and all her post-doc piers were also paid in the same 35-40k range, with a slight increase with the years of experience.<br />I had some friends at NYU or Berkeley that were paid a bit more (40-45k) but I've never seen anyone paid more than 50k for a post-doc (except perhaps those guys that had a bizarre status because they were in their 7th year of post-doc and older than tenured profs, but I haven't asked).<br /><br />I know that 20 people and 4-5 departments/universities don't make good statistics, so does anyone know what's the pourcentage of post-docs paid 45k and higher, or if this information can be found somewhere?<br /><br />Because if it's 5%, yes we can just assume the article is about them and move on for now, but it won't make it really relevant.mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33810657791661741462010-09-20T02:11:54.790-05:002010-09-20T02:11:54.790-05:00@Anonymous channelling CPP:
Please be aware that ...@Anonymous channelling CPP:<br /><br />Please be aware that many current PIs got their current positions at a time when the odds of doing so were much better than they are today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32211126759570414772010-09-20T00:05:58.609-05:002010-09-20T00:05:58.609-05:00what a great life for post docwhat a great life for post docAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com