tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6443033226857204775..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Please Please (Reject) MeFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12215446782748832102009-04-17T21:20:00.000-05:002009-04-17T21:20:00.000-05:00I really appreciate hearing about your struggles w...I really appreciate hearing about your struggles writing with others because I have similar issues. Since I'm still junior in my field, I have to acquiesce to others when we disagree, which is really frustrating. Unfortunately, some reviewers aren't going to be as discerning as yours was!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62800841052994758842009-04-15T11:09:00.000-05:002009-04-15T11:09:00.000-05:00Why quit when you can walk away? As in, oh yes, h...Why quit when you can walk away? As in, oh yes, haven't done that, I'll get to it sooner or very later.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7532088749448391502009-04-14T16:48:00.000-05:002009-04-14T16:48:00.000-05:00A few thoughts.
One difficulty of this situation ...A few thoughts.<br /><br />One difficulty of this situation is that there is no acceptable choice. If you quit, you violate your personal value of stick-with-it-ness. Stick with it and you get to be abused with questionable results. Given such options, I feel you are being too hard on yourself when you say, "...obviously I was ineffective in this case." It's not that you were ineffective; it's that the situation was Catch-22.<br /><br />I sense that you got to where you are precisely because of your stick-with-it-ness. I propose that you celebrate that and make the best of the reviewer comments.<br /><br />Researchers at the Center for Gender in Organizations at Simmons College have spoken about how much of female faculty turnover is not necessarily due to any one cause that would show up in an exit interview (if there was an exit interview), but, rather, "death by a thousand paper cuts." Sounds like this experience was more like a gash than a cut. <br /><br />Finally, and most disturbingly, there is research that suggests that female experts are more likely to be discounted in a group setting (see reference below). My only hope is that once such dynamics are named, committed intact teams will be able to discuss such dynamics and manage them appropriately. <br /><br />For the sake of all future unborn daughters, I certainly hope so. <br /><br />Ref. <A HREF="http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/index.php/Kellogg/article/when_what_you_know_is_not_enough" REL="nofollow">http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/index.php/Kellogg/article/when_what_you_know_is_not_enough</A>Peter Pruynhttp://bridgeacrossgender.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22367597368622372532009-04-14T09:16:00.000-05:002009-04-14T09:16:00.000-05:00I would never put my name on a science paper that ...I would never put my name on a science paper that I disagreed with, but this was a different kind of thing. There was a task to be done and various ways to do it. I didn't like how it was done, all my other coauthors did, and the overall goal was more-or-less accomplished.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-77741990568351758852009-04-14T07:48:00.000-05:002009-04-14T07:48:00.000-05:00This post is interesting. I hope that I would nev...This post is interesting. I hope that I would never send in a ms with my name on it that I did not agree with. Not sure anyone could make me either. What were you hoping to get by sending in a ms you disagreed with? The respect of your co-authors???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27725925338218231942009-04-13T20:36:00.000-05:002009-04-13T20:36:00.000-05:00I wonder about privacy too, What would your coauth...I wonder about privacy too, What would your coauthors say if they read this. I recall you mentioned something about more and more people knowing who you are. Just a thought. I suppose being tenured helps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75694357307235300732009-04-13T18:37:00.000-05:002009-04-13T18:37:00.000-05:00well unfortunately since things were put to vote a...well unfortunately since things were put to vote and you lost each time, there's not much else that you could have done except (a) quit which you said was not an option, or (b) pull rank and say "well this is MY idea and MY project and I am the leader so we are going to do it MY way and screw you all who disagree!!" <br /><br />Seriously, what would have been the fall out if you did the latter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33627026957767892222009-04-13T12:31:00.000-05:002009-04-13T12:31:00.000-05:00Since this was apparently a review-y editorialish ...Since this was apparently a review-y editorialish kind of piece, I wonder if you could have parleyed it into two papers, in a sort of "point-counterpoint" format. Some review journals invite this type of submission.<BR/><BR/>The difficulty, I guess, would have been getting your project team to "agree to disagree" in a constructive, productive way.Curt F.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-87263663798420118482009-04-13T12:23:00.000-05:002009-04-13T12:23:00.000-05:00"Reviewers inevitably hate the same things I hated..."Reviewers inevitably hate the same things I hated that my advisor insisted on saying. "<BR/><BR/>As an adviser, I am much more likely to tone down the enthusiasm of students than to push them to put in things they disagree with. I've always thought it was the advisers role to be voice of caution, not to push junk into papers!Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-70451313173323713032009-04-13T11:13:00.000-05:002009-04-13T11:13:00.000-05:00I have been in these situations before. What I lea...I have been in these situations before. What I learned is to try to include at least one other person who will always be in my corner, and to figure out who is the most aggressive of the jerks and not include them, if at all possible. Even if it means picking a time when they can't come to the meetings, and letting them excuse themselves for that reason!<BR/><BR/>I do wonder if this is not one of the many cases where it was you vs. a bunch of guys? And whether having even one other woman involved (maybe even a junior one) would have helped?<BR/><BR/>And I wonder sometimes about whether women tend to try too hard to be inclusive, to our own detriment. I see this a lot from women, we ask advice/input and it makes us look weak or uncertain to certain kinds of men. <BR/><BR/>I'm thinking about organizing a review issue of a journal in my field, as it would be good for my CV. <BR/><BR/>However, I have been balking at the idea of having to deal with co-authors who are, in my case, somewhat aggressive but more seriously procrastinators in the extreme. <BR/><BR/>This post makes me think I'd be better off writing my own thing now, and maybe organizing a group issue some day in the future (or maybe never). Right now I can't see voluntarily taking on this kind of stress. <BR/><BR/>I don't have friends in high places who will be kind enough to contact me - more likely they would assume I was the cause of the idiocy, without asking. <BR/><BR/>It's always a bit of a double-edge sword when this happens with my manuscripts. Reviewers inevitably hate the same things I hated that my advisor insisted on saying. I'm glad they said so, but meanwhile my career is stalling out before it can begin. And yet, I retain the confidence and belief in my opinions.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28077794373553078092009-04-13T07:49:00.000-05:002009-04-13T07:49:00.000-05:00"...extraordinarily aggressive men who used an imp...<I>"...extraordinarily aggressive men who used an impressive arsenal of obnoxious tactics to get their way"</I><BR/><BR/>You don't by any chance feel like spilling the beans (in a generic anonymous kind of way) as to what these tactics were, do you?<BR/><BR/>I ask as someone who is not great at spotting or dealing with these sorts of tactics and for whom forewarned is forearmed.Feminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78880175295161179082009-04-13T07:42:00.000-05:002009-04-13T07:42:00.000-05:00I explained the situation briefly so that he would...<I>I explained the situation briefly so that he wouldn't think I was insane, and also, I admit, so that he wouldn't think that I held some of the views expressed in the document.</I><BR/><BR/>Question for you: Given the negative reception of this manuscript by reviewers, do you think it may have damaged your reputation any? I mean, one reviewer has spoken to you, but not all. May they have gotten the wrong impression?<BR/><BR/>For me, one of the morals of the story is ... know well ahead of time what the end product is going to resemble before working with a group of yahoos.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14211618861743447072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-68465610325898160122009-04-13T03:04:00.000-05:002009-04-13T03:04:00.000-05:00That reviewer sounds like a gem. Here's hoping th...That reviewer sounds like a gem. Here's hoping the editorial decision goes your way!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40150060619186837422009-04-13T00:49:00.000-05:002009-04-13T00:49:00.000-05:00The situation is perplexing. If I'm first author,...The situation is perplexing. If I'm first author, the paper is as I like it. If I'm not, I phrase comments as suggestions, even if only one of my students is ahead of me in the author list - the buck stops with him.<BR/><BR/>Given aggressive co-authors, I think you should have stepped aside and pushed the leadership to someone who liked the way the work was going. It's a recipe for trouble if the mixmaster is not enthused about the paper.<BR/><BR/>Posting this is a bit risky. If the co-authors invested much effort, and knew you had encouraged a reviewer to submit negative comments, they would likely take offense.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.com