tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6835780309018904199..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Kick MeFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-52937371992257268742011-04-12T21:13:44.052-05:002011-04-12T21:13:44.052-05:00@Cara: And I'm SO fed up with all that "y...@Cara: And I'm SO fed up with all that "you teach people how to treat you" garbage.<br /><br />A very, very good point.Zhttp://profacero.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-11810418163501342102011-04-12T11:38:48.293-05:002011-04-12T11:38:48.293-05:00I think if you escalated or came back at him - you...I think if you escalated or came back at him - you would have run the risk of coming off with a mixed message depending on the individual viewpoints of the other people in the room.<br />Making a point for the sake of scoring a point is not always productive.<br />It sounds like the approach you took was an excellent approach and likely paved the way for a better working relationship with the other person.<br />Based on your last sentence (and you were there - we were not) it does sound like this person probably did learn and will hopefully make a stronger effort to behave in a more professional manner going forward.<br />Everybody says stupid things - and it is nice to give somebody a chance to help them realize they were just an idiot. You may have helped him to adjust without turning it into a battle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21192931391257477392011-04-11T22:48:01.630-05:002011-04-11T22:48:01.630-05:00Oh, awesome. So not only does FSP get a bunch of ...Oh, awesome. So not only does FSP get a bunch of crap from some random moron at work, she gets it from <i>other women</i> here on her own blog. Good grief.<br /><br />And that Clarissa kid is too hilarious. Imagine, women "let" men disrespect them in the workplace! The men must be entirely blameless. It's not like misogynist attitudes are in the fricking water or anything.<br /><br />As always, everyone else's behavior is a woman's fault. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, and the women who have internalized their misogyny yap away as if they're going to get issued an honorary penis if they "handle" things <i>just right.</i><br /><br />This is not a function of what each individual woman does, kids. This is the culture. One of the things it does best is pit women against each other. <br /><br />After all, if we're policing each other and vying for the honor of being "the Special Woman Who Does It Right", we don't have the energy or the BACKUP to fight the jerkwad guys who sit in meetings and talk about how the woman must be there as a token.<br /><br />The reason this is something every woman has to gauge for herself is because PEOPLE (male and female) REFUSE TO SEE THIS PROBLEM AS SYSTEMATIC IN NATURE AND WON'T BACK HER UP WHEN SHE TRIES TO HANDLE IT. <br /><br />Sheesh. And I'm SO fed up with all that "you teach people how to treat you" garbage. There are some men who have been taught far too well how to treat women by the culture at large. That's why EVERY woman, no matter how smart or dumb or pretty or not or old or young has these stories. Let's put the blame for this crap where it belongs--on the perpetrator.Caranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17799295434792394972011-04-11T22:23:23.905-05:002011-04-11T22:23:23.905-05:00I would probably have responded as you did, FSP, b...I would probably have responded as you did, FSP, because there are just so many of these incidents and I can't be bothered to figure out spelled-out responses to them all. It is annoying, yes.<br /><br />Depending on context and so on, I might say something and might not. It's wearing to be the target and also to have the job of responding just right every time.<br /><br />I find these kinds of incidents wearing and it is often salutary for me to stand up for myself. But if a way to do it that really will be strengthening doesn't come to mind at the moment, not rising to the bait and coming on with a strong response re the work at hand is a good option.<br /><br />I don't think that not saying something every time amounts to collusion. I used to be more surprised at certain things, and thus more outspoken, than I am now. But in the days when I felt it my duty to respond consistently, I used to admire the dignity of some people who were targets and didn't respond every time. I realized: their sense of self worth does not depend on what happens in this venue, and they will take care of themselves in good time and on their own schedule.Zhttp://profacero.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83995210203843882292011-04-09T16:53:15.184-05:002011-04-09T16:53:15.184-05:00One great thing about this committee is that there...One great thing about this committee is that there is no committee chair; we all have equal super-galactic committee powers. <br /><br />I know some people think that every insult deserves an equal and opposite reply, but there are cases (and I believe this is one of them) in which being super-professional and mature makes the insulter look mean and small.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85494014170900088682011-04-09T16:03:58.092-05:002011-04-09T16:03:58.092-05:00My thought was "well, now we know which seat ...My thought was "well, now we know which seat on this committee was reserved for a misogynist jerk that no one wanted on any other committee" or "what quota put you on this committee", but that would be best left unsaid. <br /><br />Your response, to get back on topic with an insightful comment germane to the business at hand, probably felt like punch in the nose to Prof. Jerk.Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34523921793216570732011-04-09T07:16:02.011-05:002011-04-09T07:16:02.011-05:00The importent point about such a comment is its in...The importent point about such a comment is its inherent implication that you have nothing of value to add to the committee other than your gender. What a terrible thing to say! As an MSP if I were in the room I would be appalled and speak out myself against such a spiteful attack against a colleague. The chair of this committee should have said something.Greg Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11062816358461460382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-74483940317638692332011-04-09T02:30:19.518-05:002011-04-09T02:30:19.518-05:00what an annoying situation. Maybe annoyance is a e...what an annoying situation. Maybe annoyance is a euphemism. <br /><br />is this jerk colleague married? Of course he is, I bet he's married and has kids and grand kids by now.<br /><br />How does he view or treat his wife and his daughters/daughters-in-law? With the same contempt and disrespect for their abilities? I really would like to know how sexist jerks even manage to find someone to marry them. Surely they don't treat their wives like queens and treat all other women like second class citizens? And if they treat their wives like second class citizens, who would want to marry them??<br /><br />In a way I can "understand" how racist or homophobic people manage to maintain their ways, they probably go to great lengths to avoid contact with the "type" of people that they hate/fear. A racist person wouldn't marry someone of the race that they hate, for example.<br /><br />That's what makes me always wonder about sexism and how it's different from racism or homophobia. Because practically all sexist men are married. You gotta wonder how they are treating their wives (i.e. with disrespect or some level of contempt) and why such women would allow being treated this way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-13964585200315653722011-04-08T17:06:48.246-05:002011-04-08T17:06:48.246-05:00Of course, FSP will soon be Chair. . .
Oh yes, if...Of course, FSP will soon be Chair. . .<br /><br />Oh yes, if the clown objects to being picked on just smile.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30798667517278284242011-04-08T14:35:53.383-05:002011-04-08T14:35:53.383-05:00When I'm not too stunned that I'm STILL ru...When I'm not too stunned that I'm STILL running into this type of behavior, my response to this sort of behavior is to say something along the lines of, "Well, if you think that I'm not contributing sufficiently to the group, then I certainly have other things to do, and you can find another token female." Then sit there and wait until they either tell me I can quit wasting my time or apologize. I'm to the point that I'm tired of people getting away with comments like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-43217329943286507572011-04-08T13:51:30.731-05:002011-04-08T13:51:30.731-05:00In addition to your diversity hat maybe you could ...In addition to your diversity hat maybe you could bake cookies for "their meeting" ....<br /><br />Seriously, that was a comment well beyond the pale and I agree he should have been called out on it. One way to think about whether he crossed the line--what would you have said if he had made the same comment about someone else in the group who was part of a different under-represented group, or if in the course of a scientific discussion he had made an obviously racist, homophobic or other offensive statement? If you wouldn't have let him offend someone else, don't let him offend you.<br /><br />Mark PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-40123642901619312102011-04-08T12:52:48.824-05:002011-04-08T12:52:48.824-05:00I think that people should pick up their battles. ...I think that people should pick up their battles. You cannot be constantly discussing all bullshit around you. So sometimes you have to let it go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15536888297137454492011-04-08T12:41:04.159-05:002011-04-08T12:41:04.159-05:00I don't understand the last sentence, but the ...I don't understand the last sentence, but the first part is right. The group needed to include a woman, there weren't many options, I agreed to join the group etc. etc. I don't think we need to discuss this at every meeting for 6 years, especially when it is used to undermine my authority, and it is not relevant to my day-to-day work in this group, but I don't contest the fact.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27873454886369625972011-04-08T12:34:12.014-05:002011-04-08T12:34:12.014-05:00"I think it is important that there be a woma..."I think it is important that there be a woman in this group"<br /><br />"They had to have a woman" <br /><br />That's pretty much the same sentiment, right? You agreed to be the token woman. Once you don't see yourself as that, then you should have no problem contesting your token status.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09371893596402673898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-90060524432880542112011-04-08T10:26:31.349-05:002011-04-08T10:26:31.349-05:00Can I respond to Clarissa here instead of on her s...Can I respond to Clarissa here instead of on her sad blog post? I think that there are absolutely some situations -- maybe even most -- in which there should be a response, even a sharp one -- but it is naive to say that this should happen in every single case. And it is irrational to expect any one woman to go against her best judgment about what is most constructive in a particular situation just because some naive young woman would like to see us all shouting back at every obnoxious comment. And to say that it is the woman's fault that these things are perpetuated? Really? Blame the woman?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-90258449691660032762011-04-08T10:14:39.997-05:002011-04-08T10:14:39.997-05:00Sorry to let you down, but I would do the same thi...Sorry to let you down, but I would do the same thing again in the same situation. I was added to this group because they needed a woman scientist, so there was no point in objecting to this fact being mentioned. It was weird that this continues to be mentioned after so many years, but actually I think the person who made the remark was trying to annoy me (we argue a lot, so this makes sense). In this situation, the best thing to do was be professional and do my job, and that is what I did. I took the high road, and this had a more positive impact on the group than a pointless argument or return insult.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-47487331364101272442011-04-08T03:46:06.105-05:002011-04-08T03:46:06.105-05:00FSP, why did you basically ignore your colleagues&...FSP, why did you basically ignore your colleagues' blatantly unfair behavior? By not saying anything, by not correcting his erroneous remark, you are colluding. You are sending the silent message that blatantly prejudiced and INCORRECT assumptions about women and about you personally, will go unchallenged and therefore must be correct.<br /><br />Maybe you wanted to be the "bigger person" by letting it go. This is a very noble and admirable idea but on the practical level I really think it does not make the actual problem go away. The "be a bigger person and let it go" approach works if it's a passing incident that will blow over on its own (like if it was a complete stranger on the bus who made that remark, someone whom you will never cross paths with again) that making a fuss wouldn't help and only make you look petty.<br /><br />BUT your situation is obviously different because this is an ongoing work group of which you're a part, these are your colleagues who are not going anywhere anytime soon (and neither are you, I assume). You will encounter this exact situation again and again because the situation is not changing on its own.<br /><br />And that's the point. The situation will not change on its own, except maybe in the sense of getting worse because nothing is done to counter it. <br /><br />Why didn't you directly address his remark, in front of the rest of your colleagues? And THEN move on with the rest of what you actually did. <br /><br />If you don't like the idea of "confrontation", then why not at least use your colleague's remark to start a discussion on the topic rather than simply avoiding the topic and hurrying on as if it didn't happen?<br /><br />You are tenured, and you are established in your career and department. You have far less to lose in standing up for yourself than many other women who face the same (or worse) situations.<br /><br />Please, next time this happens, do not just let it slide and say nothing. please stand up for yourself!!<br /><br />I don't know exactly what would be the best words to say in that situation, but seeing as how you've been part of this group for SIX YEARS, surely that's plenty of time to think about and rehearse ahead of time what to say when this situation occurs??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-32886397188796005372011-04-08T01:48:48.963-05:002011-04-08T01:48:48.963-05:00I don't like talking about people behind their...I don't like talking about people behind their backs, so this is the link to a response I wrote to this appalling situation:<br /><br />http://clarissasbox.blogspot.com/2011/04/women-and-self-respect.htmlClarissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11027134365260069910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29997130347750669972011-04-07T18:15:02.578-05:002011-04-07T18:15:02.578-05:00Sounds like prof-not-a-token is too old to change ...Sounds like prof-not-a-token is too old to change really. Your other colleagues probably just rolled their eyes and made a mental note not to invite this jerk for dinner. If your young colleague learns that he can make inappropriate comments too, then you can squish him like a bug. <br />I think your response was right FSP, you can't fight all the battles, and sometimes it's just worth getting things done rather than hung on a stupid argument. This is something that young FSPs should learn as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59229467142262412652011-04-07T17:34:00.118-05:002011-04-07T17:34:00.118-05:00When you first started talking about the hat, I ha...When you first started talking about the hat, I had a vision of it getting plunked onto the head of anyone making a "token" comment.<br /><br />As for how to judo the comment, it could be a chance to say "Thank you for recognizing the value of a variety of viewpoints in this committee. Are there any other perspectives we are missing? Are some redundant?"Materialisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212265123565984739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-34763608174381026292011-04-07T17:23:46.698-05:002011-04-07T17:23:46.698-05:00I think this committee needs at least one other wo...I think this committee needs at least one other woman. <br /><br />To the person who said gender shouldn't matter, that's a bunch of bullshit. As long as there is sexism like this, it's a war for equality. <br /><br />I love FrauTech's response, but really I wonder what would happen if next time he says he hasn't seen evidence of discrimination, if you just said quietly, "I have. How about you, Bob?" etc. if you have allies among the other guys on the committee. All they have to say, "Yes, I have too." I think the best way to deal with these douchebags is to gang up on them. They're only in power because they're part of the majority, so take it away from them. That way it's not about your personal disagreements with this guy, and he might learn to adjust his behavior if he feels ostracized. <br /><br />For that matter, if you're going to make a hat, make hats for the other decent human beings on the committee. You could all just silently put them on together. They could say something clever, and I'm sure someone else could come up with a better slogan, but it could be something along the lines of "I Support Diversity".Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-60277735057272605552011-04-07T15:38:17.539-05:002011-04-07T15:38:17.539-05:00I think he has both issues: interpersonal hostilit...I think he has both issues: interpersonal hostility layered onto background sexism.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-85911758387601256012011-04-07T14:44:22.746-05:002011-04-07T14:44:22.746-05:00We recently had a 2-year argument about an issue.
...<i>We recently had a 2-year argument about an issue.</i><br /><br />This would almost cheer me up -- that he wasn't exposing an unthinking undercurrent of sexism in how people think about you, but that he's a jerk who dislikes you, and was needling you on purpose. Straightforward interpersonal hostility is easier, somehow, than background prejudice.LizardBreathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14762435948398102424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64592497502996071482011-04-07T14:28:15.502-05:002011-04-07T14:28:15.502-05:00"Well I tried to get in as the token self-cen..."Well I tried to get in as the token self-centered douchebag but they told me that slot was already taken."<br /><br />Though I too usually just sit there surprised. Sometimes I just say something like, "Really? Really?!" While staring them down. Or if they have daughters I might make a comment like "Ahh look what your daughters have to look forward to" if it's some genderizing comment about what women are good at or not good at. In my case it's almost always a superior with more power than me to whom I can't say anything to that will offend.FrauTechhttp://frautech.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17764241337531176272011-04-07T12:22:17.050-05:002011-04-07T12:22:17.050-05:00For the anon who struggles with this in faculty me...For the anon who struggles with this in faculty meetings, we recently had an incident which I found very freeing. During a horrible verbally abusive tirade, one of our faculty (the one being abused) simply stood up and left. She wasn't going to take it any more. In shock, several of us (mixed MSP and FSPs) looked at each other and then all left too. It was very freeing. Even pre-tenure, I learned that we don't have to put up with this crap. If it ever happens again (and it will as it has happened repeatedly in this department), we will leave again. And btw, in our meetings, it is always MSPs abusing FSPs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com