tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post6855080339730876632..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: Women In Science - extra editionFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-71428158224299535962008-07-22T03:30:00.000-05:002008-07-22T03:30:00.000-05:00Thanks for this -- just discovered your blog and a...Thanks for this -- just discovered your blog and am so happy to find a fellow FSP. I was blind to the sexism (wanted not to see it or to be seen as a complainer) until my dept chair decided that my tenure case was not as urgent as was my male peer's, so he sat on mine for 5 months doing nothing while he was busy pushing the guy's case through. This was despite the fact that my 14 outside letters all said mine was the best tenure case they'd seen in their lives! Nice way to treat someone so well respected in their discipline, eh? Killed my love of my job. I still don't have tenure 15 months after submitting my case, but it is apparently now half way through the process! Nice...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-83717449270234444562008-07-20T21:38:00.000-05:002008-07-20T21:38:00.000-05:00WOW. Some really great comments here. /sarcasmI a...WOW. Some really great comments here. /sarcasm<BR/><BR/>I almost didn't go in to math and physics. Why? I was encouraged *away* from them by profs and, yes, by that old 'girls can't do math' trope. I had to do a science credit for school and I picked physics. My prof was one hell of a woman. I ended up tutoring half the class and she kept pulling me aside after every class and yelling at me. "What are you doing? You're a scientist!" Now I am and I love it.<BR/><BR/>For every story you have about a woman "pushed into science" I bet I could find at least 1 story (and in all likelihood a handful more) about women like me pushed away from science.lost clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02751161198550585778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17560103686991015062008-07-17T09:00:00.000-05:002008-07-17T09:00:00.000-05:00Another white male here, to say there are plenty o...Another white male here, to say there are plenty of supportive people out there - but "plenty" could still be a minority of us. What is really difficult is what I would call inadvertent bias, the clueless result of borderline Asperger types who aren't that aware of what they are doing. <BR/><BR/>It is striking to me how different things are at a CC, where women make up about half of the faculty and academic administration overall but are still a (substantial) minority in the sciences. Here the biggest problem is how students disrespect female faculty, and its not clear to me how the male faculty can change that.Doctor Pionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12513786840852469648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-91786518632992227602008-07-16T23:26:00.000-05:002008-07-16T23:26:00.000-05:00Not only white dudes tend to hire white dudes. The...Not only white dudes tend to hire white dudes. They mentor, support, encourage them. <BR/>Women's accomplishments are simply ignored.<BR/><BR/>jrb, what you say makes sense. It is my experience too, although in my case it worked in my favor, so to speak. My brother was discouraged from studying philosophy and nudged towards economics. My dad wanted me to study classics, and when I said I wanted to do science, he suggested a course in science journalism (?!). He let me choose, basically because he thought it didn't matter (e.g., husband would provide for me) and as long as I had the option to teach high school, it would be fine...chemcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00098595895344578873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21857541375447837182008-07-16T22:16:00.000-05:002008-07-16T22:16:00.000-05:00I am SOOOO thankful for FSP's blog and many other ...I am SOOOO thankful for FSP's blog and many other women in science who not just help me know that I am not alone, but I do take the advice and suggestions made to heart. I agree that when women are underlings (undergrads, grad students, postdocs) working with men as their boss it's a different story than when women are hired on the same level (asst prof, leadership roles). Whole different ballgame. It's not a "leaky pipeline"... men hire men. Even better, white dudes hire white dudes. PERIOD. But someone needs to puke on Tierney's shoes! Oooooh, I'll do it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-60298405080574110812008-07-16T21:19:00.000-05:002008-07-16T21:19:00.000-05:00This is another one of those posts that gives me h...This is another one of those posts that gives me hope. <BR/>Thanks again FSP!Beccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356974556397009124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-22637124070231464812008-07-16T20:01:00.000-05:002008-07-16T20:01:00.000-05:00As a fellow FSP, can I just say that many of your ...As a fellow FSP, can I just say that many of your observations are spot on with my experinces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15787312020832290282008-07-16T17:08:00.000-05:002008-07-16T17:08:00.000-05:00The idea that women are being encouraged to study ...The idea that women are being encouraged to study science/engineering, even if they "don't like it" is interesting. It assumes that men who are encouraged to study STEM do in fact "like it". <BR/><BR/>(Making gross generalizations...)I think that men are encouraged to choose careers based on the pressure to make a decent living (to support future families). If men also find something they like to do, so much the better. With women, I think we are given the idea that our choice of study/career should be something we are truly "passionate" about. How many men or women are "passionate" about engineering? (Yes, some people like FSP are passionate, and I am glad for that).<BR/><BR/>I think this is leftover from the (sort of) past, when a woman's career was considered more of a distraction or amusement, and not as a way of financial support (that is what your husband is for silly.) Therefore a woman who loves music, or art or literature may be encouraged to pursue that even if she will make very little $, while a man might be discouraged from following a passion as a career.<BR/><BR/>So maybe the women being "forced" into engineering/science "against their will", are just experiencing some of the pressure that men have long had to deal with? Just a thought.<BR/><BR/>(I am a woman with a PhD in Engineering.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-8228536056920446492008-07-16T16:25:00.000-05:002008-07-16T16:25:00.000-05:00To have encouragement to pursue an interest in the...To have encouragement to pursue an interest in the sciences is one important piece of the puzzle. To have a mentor who looks like you and maybe has experienced some of the choices you face (when to have kids, or perhaps more importantly for me, when to have a life) and who you can relate to is another. I think mentors are incredibly valuable. <BR/><BR/>I'm just starting to be a mentor and have to thank all of the women out there who mentored me! I couldn't have done it with out them paving the way! Thanks also to FSP. I've been reading this blog (and lurking) for several months. I find it very useful as I am just finishing year one of my tenure track job at a large state school in a science department where I am the only representative of my gender in a tenure track position. The insights of another woman in science are helpful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-88118447516888368762008-07-16T16:04:00.000-05:002008-07-16T16:04:00.000-05:00Given the glut of Ph.D's who can't find academic j...Given the glut of Ph.D's who can't find academic jobs EVERYONE should be DISCOURAGED from becoming a research scientist. If women are better at being discouraged than men then so be it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3401817481353388642008-07-16T14:26:00.000-05:002008-07-16T14:26:00.000-05:00People should quit pressuring women to study subje...<I> People should quit pressuring women to study subjects they really aren't interested in just to push their own women-in-science agenda.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly. Just like people should really quite pressuring women to study subjects they aren't interested in just because of implicit bias. <BR/><BR/>We don't know until the studies have been done, but I would guess that there are more women kept out of sciences, engineering, and maths due to implicit bias than have been pressured to remain in those fields due to encouraging equality.<BR/><BR/>It is important to remember that not everyone is the same. Even if there are gender generalities, there will still be individuals who do not fit the mold. <BR/><BR/>I wish I could go back to my 7th grad self and say "hey, it's ok for a girl to like math club... don't listen to those idiots", or even to my college freshman self and say "you're doing well in physics, and a degree in physics will help you study what you want to study better than that biology degree". The idea of encouraging women in the STEM fields is to have mentors saying these things to women, since we can't go back in time and say them to ourselves.MGShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02140920879108426928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-54426770180827938652008-07-16T09:52:00.000-05:002008-07-16T09:52:00.000-05:00Doug, Why is your wife not speaking for herself?Doug, <BR/>Why is your wife not speaking for herself?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-3393447111909429842008-07-16T02:51:00.000-05:002008-07-16T02:51:00.000-05:00I'm convinced that women are being funneled into e...I'm convinced that women are being funneled into engineering who wouldn't otherwise choose that career, because that was my wife's experience. Just because somebody does well in math and science doesn't mean they want to be an engineer or scientist. My wife was a poster child for women in engineering, even being featured in an article for a university publication. She had superb grades, fantastic internships and landed a great job making good money. The only problem was she didn't enjoy her work. At first I tried to change her mind regarding a career change, even obtaining for her a verbal offer for a research fellowship to pursue graduate studies at my former university based on her stellar grades and academics, but she just wouldn't go for it. Instead, she switched to health care, and started enjoying work for the first time in 6 years. People should quit pressuring women to study subjects they really aren't interested in just to push their own women-in-science agenda. It's a horrible way to retain good talent.<BR/><BR/>DougAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-30279435471645589242008-07-16T00:46:00.000-05:002008-07-16T00:46:00.000-05:00So.. I can either complain about being a token wom...So.. I can <I>either</I> complain about being a token woman on committees (and therefore having a higher service load than my male colleagues) <I>or</I> I can complain about all-male committees, but not both? It is so hard to choose, especially since both are directly related to the lack of women science professors. I promise I will stop complaining in this somewhat unreasonable and apparently inconsistent way when more women science professors are hired and promoted, making both situations rare and unlikely.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-49956362576911126892008-07-16T00:30:00.000-05:002008-07-16T00:30:00.000-05:00In my own experience, these things are *highly* va...In my own experience, these things are *highly* variable depending on your university. Problems at a certain Cambridge-based university, for example, does not mean that there is a universal problem. I also have a problem with this anecdotal data. Nearly everybody, both men and women, has some of the same kinds of gripes: not paid as much as peers, given less lab space, lower priority for various requests. Complaining about a higher committee load because committees need "token women" and simultaneously about the existence of all-male committees doesn't seem completely reasonable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-62854686452765610212008-07-15T23:48:00.000-05:002008-07-15T23:48:00.000-05:00Isn't funny (NOT in a Ha Ha way) that academia and...Isn't funny (NOT in a Ha Ha way) that academia and people who work there are considered to be more progressive and yet this double standard continues to exist?<BR/><BR/>It is one of the infuriating reasons I left academia. Thanks for writing about it.Mad Chemist Chickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14700061998130030601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59473755172160624782008-07-15T23:31:00.000-05:002008-07-15T23:31:00.000-05:00Thanks, yes of course that's fine with me.Thanks, yes of course that's fine with me.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-9248482553674554842008-07-15T23:25:00.000-05:002008-07-15T23:25:00.000-05:00Very well said FSP, with your permission I would l...Very well said FSP, with your permission I would like to reprint you post in a newletter for the members of our Women in Science organization.ScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41018334322309284032008-07-15T20:47:00.000-05:002008-07-15T20:47:00.000-05:00Everything you say in your post I have experienced...Everything you say in your post I have experienced too. It is not so bad in primarily teaching schools. Don't know who the lucky women are who escaped this in a research setting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-76432758775598129832008-07-15T20:11:00.000-05:002008-07-15T20:11:00.000-05:00Anonymous said: I thank god that I am a white,make...Anonymous said: <I>I thank god that I am a white,<BR/>make professor. From this blog it<BR/>seems that non-white or female professors see *everything* through a gender/race filter. Being white and male means that when unpleasant things happen to me I can look for their source (some idiot) rather than<BR/>bias. Of course, now I don't have<BR/>any where to vent...</I><BR/><BR/>As another white male professor, let me assure everyone else here that we don't all think like Anonymous... <BR/><BR/>You certainly don't need to be female or a minority to notice the bias.Odysseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14589096873729951466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79067937276427327822008-07-15T19:40:00.000-05:002008-07-15T19:40:00.000-05:00Thanks!Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-24060364236274003522008-07-15T19:37:00.000-05:002008-07-15T19:37:00.000-05:00I thank god that I am a white,make professor. Fro...I thank god that I am a white,<BR/>make professor. From this blog it<BR/>seems that non-white or female professors see *everything* through a gender/race filter. Being white and male means that when unpleasant things happen to me I can look for their source (some idiot) rather than<BR/>bias. Of course, now I don't have<BR/>any where to vent...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12131816025696439052008-07-15T19:26:00.000-05:002008-07-15T19:26:00.000-05:00And it's not just the physical sciences. Although ...And it's not just the physical sciences. Although much is made about the majority of young women in the life sciences, at the faculty level we are still a minority. And I was one of those who would have enjoyed the physical sciences just as much, and YES, the atmosphere DOES make a difference. <BR/><BR/>Little did I know, it's pretty much all the same sexist shit once you pass the PhD level. <BR/><BR/>I agree with cloud, I think many young women do not experience or recognize discrimination. I think this changes as they get older. <BR/><BR/>FSP, I love your blog and thank you again (and again and again) for writing it.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-28279083881790768482008-07-15T17:57:00.000-05:002008-07-15T17:57:00.000-05:00I was pretty surprised at how boneheaded that colu...I was pretty surprised at how boneheaded that column was. It completely misses the point - why do all these math/science women go to life science? Not because they have an intrinsic love for life science, but because they've been DISCOURAGED from other physical sciences. It's a case of one pushing away more than the other pulling. My mother's the perfect example - she dropped chem in favor of bio when nobody would hire her for labwork as a coop.<BR/><BR/>I do think we're doing better by nibbling away at the edges - as a woman who's in a field that has only very recently reached parity, I'm seeing that the "old boys club" seems to be more used to us and cognizant of the many exceptional women in the field, much more now then when I first graduated from undergrad (about 10 years ago).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-75679235131285770972008-07-15T17:25:00.000-05:002008-07-15T17:25:00.000-05:00Thank you for posting on this. I started to write...Thank you for posting on this. I started to write a rant on Tierney's comments page, but decided "why bother"? I don't have time to take on all the amazing biases and idiocies in his piece.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to vent by telling JUST ONE story: last week I had a conversation with a faculty member in my department where I mentioned that Professor X is well-known to sexually harass women students. My point in bringing this up was that Professor X was until recently the director of graduate studies in the program. I suggested that this is a problem. (Note: I wasn't even suggesting that Professor X should be disciplined for being a sexual predator, just not given a position of power over every single grad student in the department.)<BR/><BR/>The faculty member's response? "Gosh, I knew Professor X is a sexual harasser, but it had never occurred to me that it might be a problem for him to be the director of graduate studies."<BR/><BR/>This faculty member is one of the people who gets it in my program - active in diversity issues, etc. She's even female and a feminist! And yet it had never occurred to her that having a sexual predator in charge of grad students in my (75% male) department might be a problem.<BR/><BR/>And people wonder why women grad students leave the physical sciences?<BR/><BR/>* bangs head against wall *<BR/><BR/>Thanks for listening. I feel slightly better now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com