tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post8434175316977894160..comments2024-03-25T02:33:41.590-05:00Comments on FemaleScienceProfessor: You ChooseFemale Science Professorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78244111054073868752009-12-03T04:17:19.148-06:002009-12-03T04:17:19.148-06:00@Comrade PhysioProf: really ... is such colorful l...@Comrade PhysioProf: really ... is such colorful language necessary to make your points? Granted this is the internet some of us still respect our mothers enough not to juxtapose them with four-letter words.<br /><br />From FSP's subsequent postings to the thread I get the distinct impression we are supposed to favor student #2 over #1. I will try my best to judge only by the original information and ignore these not-so-subtle hints and cues to bias my vote. ;)<br /><br />Having said that, if someone had put a gun to my head and told me to pick one or the other, I suppose I would have to go with #2, on the basis that #2 seems to show more initiative than #1. While it's true that #2 could have said what he/she said out of political astuteness rather than truthful interest, I think of that as a good thing. In my opinion, being politically astute is a more essential quality to getting through grad school than pure smarts. What with all the big egos that academicians tend to have, a lowly grad student without political skills, all other things being equal, is less likely to secure support and win favors to ensure successful completion of the degree. Don't get me wrong, one still has to be brainy to get through a program, but a student who knows how to put on an act when needed will have an edge over one who doesn't know how to play the game. Don't make me count the number of very bright grad students who fell by the side because they had offended some big fish in the department with their lack of political skills and refusal to play by the rules.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-7858191688327275502009-12-02T22:10:17.464-06:002009-12-02T22:10:17.464-06:00I don't think either student 1 or 2's beha...I don't think either student 1 or 2's behavior in this one situation is an indicator of how good they will be. Whether they ask you to send them your papers, or have already looked them up (or at least claimed they did), is trivial. You don't know what's inside their heads - why student1 didn't look up the papers himself or why student2 did. Let's not try to read too much into non-events.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-41762967542505324392009-12-02T16:22:00.366-06:002009-12-02T16:22:00.366-06:00I would have concerns about student 2, though. The...I would have concerns about student 2, though. They may not select the correct papers and then presume that I am working on something that is not, in fact, a primary focus. I have indeed had this happen. Then I end up explaining to the (often overzealous) student 2s that I'm not really working on that and end up with "well then I'd be really interested in working on anything else you're working on, too!" I much prefer a student to ask what would be the best thing to read.Dr. Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29813332548377279392009-12-01T01:13:01.439-06:002009-12-01T01:13:01.439-06:00Maybe I've just had very good teaching and men...Maybe I've just had very good teaching and mentoring throughout college but I wouldn't dream of emailing a supervisor until I'd gone to their website and at least skimmed through the abstracts. Final application emails usually go along the lines of "I see you are working on X and I have read through some of your papers, are there any particular ones you would recommend for a potential project?"Lab Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07962574174521597312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-37605383551601215152009-11-30T19:15:38.762-06:002009-11-30T19:15:38.762-06:00I simply will not make my decision based on one em...I simply will not make my decision based on one email. I will send student 1 some of my publications and have at least some further communication with both of them before decide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-12901315207050239032009-11-29T19:26:21.174-06:002009-11-29T19:26:21.174-06:00I think the reason people felt strong sympathy for...I think the reason people felt strong sympathy for student 1 is because, many people experienced disadvantages from being clueless. Grad school is called "school" because we are students, meaning it is OK to be clueless but we are here to learn the process etc. There are a lot of faculty members who are nice enough to respond to emails, but there are many more who are not, including my PI. I strongly agree with Kevin and his grad program- I wish mine had similar process for incoming students.Grad3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27283632919209144882009-11-29T10:07:14.949-06:002009-11-29T10:07:14.949-06:00I was doing my dissertation when I was applying to...I was doing my dissertation when I was applying to grad school and didn't quite have time to look through past research in the relevant fields until the summer hols. By then I wouldn't have had any access to journals so I asked my potential supervisors to send me the most up to date articles related to the projects that they were offering as if you didn't know where to start it is EXTREMELY time-consuming. Though I was shifting into another but related area. I actually did the literature review by hand before and it took me 3 months to get just enough information for a 5 page background information. So, when you say that student 1 is lazy, it is more like the e-mail wasn't constructed properly. Also, once a recommended literature was given it really saves a lot of time if you have to do the literature reviews by hand, especially when you are still working on a project that will determine whether you will graduate or not!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-21427387485833052052009-11-28T13:51:44.432-06:002009-11-28T13:51:44.432-06:00Student 1 seems to be asking about current researc...Student 1 seems to be asking about current research. Student 2 is trying to catch the professor's interest. I would not read much more than that into these two emails.<br /><br />I'd wait to see the rest of the file. Before then, there's really no way to know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-18909043342748371862009-11-28T00:04:47.790-06:002009-11-28T00:04:47.790-06:00I find students like number 2 a bit suspicious. Ho...<i>I find students like number 2 a bit suspicious. How many departments are they applying to? Are they really reading that many papers and wanting to pursue all these professors' research? More likely, student 2 is just a bit more savy than student 1, reads part of an abstract or two to get enough to write a few words in the e-mail and goes with it.</i><br /><br />@Bob: Speak for yourself! For the groups I was focused on, I read the past two years' publications that were relevant to the sort of projects I'd like to do. THEN I emailed asking about current projects/status of the stuff I read about and thought was cool. I know not all prospectives have time for this (I was out of school and working), but...isn't it a good idea to read up on what you're likely to be doing for the next five years of your life?!Ψ*Ψhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15089754859676425655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-78337527069579619382009-11-27T22:56:57.413-06:002009-11-27T22:56:57.413-06:00Anonymous at 4:27:
"HOW DO YOU judge a good ...Anonymous at 4:27:<br /><br />"HOW DO YOU judge a good or bad advisor from Emails??"<br /><br />You can't. And you can't judge them from visiting. There are two ways: talk to former students (not current) who have nothing to lose by being honest or be their grad student. The latter is the only sure way, and it can often be the most brutal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-89123221949799754612009-11-27T18:18:43.047-06:002009-11-27T18:18:43.047-06:00Female Science Professor said...
Exactly. You...<i>Female Science Professor said...<br /><br /> Exactly. You can be as sympathetic to Student 1 as you want -- I was clueless about grad applications, went to a small school, was the first in my family to go to grad school etc. etc. but I can't imagine writing to a professor and asking them to do something for me that I could make a first effort to do myself.</i><br /><br /><b>Bingo! Thanks FSP.</b><br /><br />I also agree with Comrade PhysioProf's post, back on 11/25/2009 at 6:57 am.<br /><br />You know what irks me? Applicants who want to pester my current grad students even before deciding whether to submit the application. I find those requests unreasonable. If grad students have time to respond to such requests before applications even get to the interview cut, then, grad students have too much time on their hands.<br /><br />Once somebody's application makes the interview cut, that's another story. But before they even apply? Heck no.Gingeralenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-64253998528870672462009-11-27T16:27:41.238-06:002009-11-27T16:27:41.238-06:00What about how to choose advisor???
Advisors who ...What about how to choose advisor???<br /><br />Advisors who don't reply, who replied once, who replies in detail but turns out bad???<br /><br />Can you make a post on how to choose advisors if there is no access to former/current grad. students or postdocs. Or if current employees give meaningless polite short info that doesn't tell you anything.<br /><br />HOW DO YOU judge a good or bad advisor from Emails??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-33109882174450047352009-11-26T13:28:16.008-06:002009-11-26T13:28:16.008-06:00Student 2 read some papers and was interested in t...Student 2 read some papers and was interested in the topics; questions were included later in the email. Student 1 asked me to select some reprints and send them. To interpret the former as narrow and the latter as open-minded is bizarre.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-59209890456037132062009-11-26T13:05:13.807-06:002009-11-26T13:05:13.807-06:00I agree with the person who thinks Student 1 could...I agree with the person who thinks Student 1 could be asking about current work, as opposed to potentially out-of-date published work. Student 1 may have already read all the published work, but didn't write a very good email. <br /><br />Student 2 reminds me of a student I had recently; and a postdoc we have in my lab right now. This type occurs frequently in science, and I don't understand the fascination with this type: reads papers and recites facts from them; technically good (but not outstanding); works hard, but not smart. And after being in the lab for over a year, still does not have an idea for a project; starts things but does not finish them unless someone else is driving. <br /><br />My point is, learning how to write an email is an important skill, but it can be learned by anyone, and later in the career. <br /><br />Learning how to ask questions is much more important, but it's also much harder, and it is almost impossible to teach. You'll note that Student 1 asked a question; Student 2 made a statement. <br /><br />You might also look at it this way: Student 1 is open-minded and looking to the future.<br /><br />Student 2 is narrow-minded and assuming that what has been done so far is 100% correct. <br /><br />I'm only giving an n=2 in my example, but I have met many students like this. Sadly, in the current state of science, they tend to do well because they are obedient (trainable) and thus very predictable. Most PIs seem to love that. I find them boring and more suited to technician jobs - not likely to make creative contributions.Ms.PhDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06542602867472447035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-48514745156620781042009-11-26T09:13:06.561-06:002009-11-26T09:13:06.561-06:00I sent letters out to three possible advisors this...I sent letters out to three possible advisors this spring. I wrote to the profs only after I had done a thorough search of available on-line material(I did not have access to a university account at the time to do lit searches), read recent articles to get a good grasp of their work, and communicated with current grad students listed on their webpage. I also did google searches to get tips on how to construct a good intro letter, what information profs liked to see included in them, etc. Then I AGONIZED over the text in the letters for a few weeks, personalizing each and re-writing several times. <br /><br />No one told me to do this, I did my homework and figured it out on my own. <br /><br />It paid off - I had two pretty much immediate offers of lab space (pending an offer of admission from the university, of course). <br /> <br />I don't think it's there's really a valid excuse for a potential student to say, "I don't know/didn't know how to look stuff up". If you can google and even a teeny bit of initiative you can figure it out.The Geek In Questionhttp://www.falltoclimb.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-15248672925456182002009-11-25T18:27:57.016-06:002009-11-25T18:27:57.016-06:00Exactly. You can be as sympathetic to Student 1 as...Exactly. You can be as sympathetic to Student 1 as you want -- I was clueless about grad applications, went to a small school, was the first in my family to go to grad school etc. etc. but I can't imagine writing to a professor and asking them to do something for me that I could make a first effort to do myself.Female Science Professorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15288567883197987690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-29488347255931640502009-11-25T18:23:07.049-06:002009-11-25T18:23:07.049-06:00I was a first generation college student, and comp...I was a first generation college student, and completely clueless about college, much less graduate school. I do worry about practices that tend to preserve privilege -- those who have more resources and better training get more opportunities, and the gap between the rich and poor grows over time. I think some affirmative action for first generation college students might be called for. On the other hand, it's completely rational to prefer working with students who are better prepared and who demonstrate more skills. And student 1 is unusually passive in this case. Would I have been student 1 as an undergrad? We didn't have the internet then, so I can't really say, but I'd like to think that if I'd had the internet I would have looked up the web pages of schools where I was applying, for heaven's sake!amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-65648267069217172982009-11-25T17:53:07.110-06:002009-11-25T17:53:07.110-06:00"making undergrads read journal papers? We ca...<i>"making undergrads read journal papers? We can't get them to read 5 pages for the final exam."</i><br /><br />Well, this is a senior/first-year grad class, and the seniors have at least one more advanced grad class to take. It's a pretty high-powered program, so getting them to read a few journal articles (as long as they aren't too hard) is not difficult. The ones who can't do that bailed out for biology or psychology (selected as they are the 2 biggest majors on campus) years earlier.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528751349030084532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-82338106830529765152009-11-25T16:36:49.856-06:002009-11-25T16:36:49.856-06:00I'd find student 2's questions better, but...I'd find student 2's questions better, but I'm suspicious when applicants act more narrowly focused in their interests than appropriate for entering graduate school.<br /><br />Rather than focussing on a paper or two, applicants would best mention one or two areas of strength in a department as the motivation to choose that graduate program.<br /><br />So neither question is ideal - better would be to flatter FSP and one or two others in the dept, and ask what nascent general projects are on the horizon among the group, perhaps citing the group's recent advances (not just naming the papers and their topics).John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-892670075191253802009-11-25T15:56:05.222-06:002009-11-25T15:56:05.222-06:00@PUI prof:
I went to a small liberal arts school ...@PUI prof:<br /><br />I went to a small liberal arts school where undergrad research was a huge focus. I did three semi-independent research projects, one of which led to a year-long tech job after graduation.<br /><br />However, because it was an undergrad only institution, I was still completely clueless about how to apply to graduate school. I didn't have any graduate students around that I could ask frankly about how to apply to grad school. And I didn't know the right questions to ask my undergrad research mentors about what the process really entailed.<br /><br />Also, the field I was interested in going into was different enough from the one where I had done research that the little advice I did get was totally off base. I applied to a bunch of broad multi-departmental programs where you typically don't contact professors until you are accepted (see comrade physioprof's post), whereas most of the faculty working in my current field take students directly, or at least expect direct email contact prior to application/admission.<br /><br />So anyway I think my undergrad prepared me to DO WELL in graduate school, but provided me no skills whatsoever for actually getting into grad school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-68428908317758043232009-11-25T15:07:22.639-06:002009-11-25T15:07:22.639-06:00I am not a student or teacher. But I will prefer s...I am not a student or teacher. But I will prefer student with the simple logic of criteria of taking intiative. While both of you know litle about field of work, 2nd one has curiosity to look in this matter.Yayaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567482260999422784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-84128751534061880802009-11-25T14:58:54.409-06:002009-11-25T14:58:54.409-06:00@Kevin...
making undergrads read journal papers? ...@Kevin...<br /><br />making undergrads read journal papers? We can't get them to read 5 pages for the final exam.<br /><br />@Quill2006<br /><br />I understand your liking for gmail. I even write papers with my gmail address displayed on them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-27932633963000001252009-11-25T14:16:24.188-06:002009-11-25T14:16:24.188-06:00I know that people who supervises/advises will get...I know that people who supervises/advises will get annoyed with me when I say this, but my experience of being a 'lab tech' in industry advised me to play dumb when meeting potential advisors. As when I started my placement in industry they told me that it was my responsibility to find out the cause behind a problem that they were having but no-one really cared about. All they've given me was an experimental set-up and I should figure out the rest. Four months into the program and I was beginning to get results on both the theoretical side and the experimental side then all of a sudden I've violated every rule in the book and my researching rights were taken, I was not allowed to do new experiments and was gradually degraded to the work of part-time lab assistants. I was only an undergrad student at the time! From then on, even though I wanted to 'sell' myself, I never let to potential supervisors/advisors know what I know already. I don't want to end up being a lab tech and always working on someone else's idea!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-17691572236707032892009-11-25T14:10:50.757-06:002009-11-25T14:10:50.757-06:00CPP is right this is why the rotation system exist...CPP is right this is why the rotation system exists, to see which turd floats and which one sinks to the bottom.Genomic Repairmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07755692245709237397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29059245.post-79104837309666536212009-11-25T12:48:21.840-06:002009-11-25T12:48:21.840-06:00I know things are different here because students ...I know things are different here because students are in general more independant than in France, but in France too PI's react like that and it seems a little hypocrit: they pretend (and it might be true) they like emails like student 2, self-motivated, with already a career plan and maybe some research ideas. However, once the guy is hired, he is considered as a lab tech (hands, no brain). This works also for post-docs, and even for assistant professors...<br /><br />As a candidate, it is quite complicated to show that you're smart, independant and have good ideas, and at the same time, show that you will clearly do what you're asked to without complaining too much.mixlamalicehttp://laviedemix.over-blog.comnoreply@blogger.com