Based on the comments to yesterday's post, I have decided to revise the Invited Talks part of my CV as follows:
Selected Talks (2006-present)
key to symbols: * = inferior A/V equipment and/or lecture hall design; + = audiences that interrupt a lot during talks; $ = European university that hands you an envelope of cash after your talk; # = university where I got food poisoning at dinner with my faculty hosts the night before my talk
Talks that were just supposed to be talks but that turned out to be stealth interviews
University of J, 10/09
* University of O, 3/08
B University, 4/07
Talks at universities where I have a friend from grad school
BFF State, 1/07
+ Z Tech, 4/06
Talks that I gave because I was a so-called distinguished lecturer for an organization and so I didn't have any choice in where I gave the talks and might not otherwise have gone to speak at these places but ended up having a really good time
*# University of ZZZ, 3/06
Y State University, 3/06
* NW Y State University, 3/06
* NW Central Y State University, 3/06
Y College, 3/06
D State University, 3/06
Talks at the university where my collaborator Bob works
University of Bob, 11/08
Talks at universities to which I applied for jobs when I was feeling angry with my current institution
University of A, 3/07
University of N, 3/07
University of G, 2/07
University of R, 11/06
Talks that were at a university in my home state but that had nothing to do with my being from that state despite what my mother thinks
University of X
Talks at universities that have no women faculty in my field and that wanted an FSP to come and show their students and postdocs that such things exist
University of Y, 4/09
University of YY, 2/08
+ MSP State, 11/07
Talks that were totally random invitations by universities that were not considering me for a job and that apparently just wanted to hear what I had to say about my research and didn't ask me to do a pizza mentoring lunch with the female students/postdocs
* University of F, 11/09
+ University of S, 4/08
$ University of P, 4/07
14 years ago
30 comments:
That's a lot of talks but they all seemed interesting/funny. Not at the time I assume.
Just an odd question semi-unrelated, what's the difference between a resume and CV? Coming from the UK every application documents that we submit to sell ourselves are CVs. I've only ever heard of resumes in the US. What's the difference?
@ComradePhysioProf and CandidEngineer
I am the HSP who got blasted foully by CPP and called a retard by Candid Engineer yesterday for suggesting that job talks pad up the CV.
I wrote about what I do about my own CV. I also mentioned why I did it. I sanitize my CV to remove details that I feel no longer define me. It gives me a sense that I am moving ahead in life. Honestly, I pity those like CPP who have to wear their achievements of the last millenium on their sleeve. In fact, I would advise CPP to include the titles of his blog posts under a new heading "Unrefereed publications" and his curse word ridden comments on others' blogs under yet another heading "Reviews written".
In fact, CPP I have a better idea. Since FSP has comment moderation enabled on her blog, why don't you pass off the comments you post here as "refereed publications"? In fact, FSP's blog has a fairly large readership and what's more...it's interdisciplinary! And FSP stays anonymous and so do you; so maybe this is a "double blind refereed interdisciplinary publication" for you? I am sure you will include these comments in your CV now, (if you already haven't).
As for me, I like to bring in new stuff into my CV and throw old stuff out. All my life, I have chosen to be understated rather than overstated. My big fear is to be taken to be smarter than I am and as such, I am extremely intolerant to the slightest form of half truth. Job talks do not make the cut as "100% invited" talks. 99.9% isn't enough. The smart ones can afford to be honest.
Out of curiosity, do you and other FSP's mind doing the pizza mentoring lunches with female students and postdocs? I'm a grad student and I organize this type of event for my department--I know the students enjoy it but I hope the female professors we invite don't find it too onerous. We generally open these lunches to male students as well but they don't always come. (Also, would it be better if the food was something other than pizza?)
Is it bad when the audience interrupts a lot? If the interruptions are reasonable questions about things I might not have explained perfectly, then I like it - it shows someone is listening and helps me make sure I am getting my message across. Since I feel this way as a speaker, I tend to be somewhat of a friendly interrupter when in the audience (at least when it's a smallish audience).
You do get a lot of invitations.
HSP,
Isn't this the difference between a resume and a CV? A resume is a document you write that describes you and how you fit into a particular job. That sort of document should be short and tailored to those things that define you, or are relevant for the position. A CV is, literally, a description of your "course of life." I learned that it should contain, essentially, everything you did in your professional life. If I were to read a sanitized CV for a job applicant they would probably end up in the "no" pile without an interview (unless their research was known to me and definitely awesome). I wouldn't do this on purpose, I would just assume that the person hadn't done very much. And how would I know the difference when I have a few hundred applications to look through?
@anon 5:08
I was under the impression that a CV was supposed to be more comprehensive than a resume. CV = everything you consider a career accomplishment. Resume = your biggest and most recent career accomplishments only.
@HSP
It's perfectly fine if you want to set ridiculous standards for your CV that no one else in your field follows. What is not fine is to be intolerant of others who write their CV like every other rational person.
Anonymous @5:08- a CV is a complete listing of your professional life. A resume is a summary, usually only 2-3 pages long. In a resume, you highlight the aspects of your experience most relevant to the job for which you are applying.
In my experience, industry positions expect resumes (although with a complete listing of publications) and academic positions expect CVs.
Love. this. post.
Love it
Mark P
PS Humor and a deep breath are the right approach to this--different folks can manage their CVs differently
Continuing the thread from yesterday.... It's worth thinking about why people who look at CVs want to see listed talks in the first place. I'm thinking about promotion, for example. Talks are at least a crude measure of how much impact you are having beyond your home institution (obviously the combination of publications and citations are another huge component). In this case, all talks are relevant. Do the people who think including explicit job talks is unethical or misleading only include completely unsolicited talks? For example, suppose I work to put together a nomination for an invited symposium at a national meeting, and I suggest my student or my postdoc as a speaker. Should the student or postdoc not list the talk on their CV, because they had some contact with the organizer?
Apologies FSP, I know this is off-point. I think you might find this interesting, you may have seen it already.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883_pf.html
It's a piece from the Washington post about a biologist who underwent a sexchange operation and so has had career experience, first as a woman and then a man. It's quite interesting.
As HSP says, it is important to know what to keep and what to remove from you CV as time goes by. But if you are going to list invited talks at all (as opposed to plenaries) there isn't really much difference between interview talks and others. In fact one could argue that given the paucity of jobs landing an interview talk is harder than landing an invited talk.
At the same time, are invited talks that hard to come by in your field? active people in my department always have a bunch of standing invitations from half a dozen institutions.
The only reason I list mine is because other people do, and if you don't some might assume that you have none.
Honestly, I pity those like CPP who have to wear their achievements of the last millenium [sic] on their sleeve.
Chip meet shoulder, shoulder meet chip.
HSP, you can do whatever you want with your CV. But seriously. Have you ever given an uninvited job talk? Just show up and start talking? And did they offer you the job? Do you not know what CV stands for?
Also, your fixation on the word "sanitize" is disturbing.
FSP, I think you should have two categories for talks: Real Talks and Tacky Talks. Problem solved.
This comment has been sanitized for your protection.
I don't mind the pizza lunches and in fact enjoy them; they do give the impression that the main/only reason an FSP was invited was to talk to other women, but I don't really care about that. I take it as a challenge to give a research talk that will interest as many people as possible in the department.
The main logistical challenge of some of the pizza lunches is that everyone else eats, I talk, and then it is assumed that I had lunch and I have to get through the rest of a busy afternoon + talk without having eaten much, if anything, since breakfast.
I don't mind interruptions during my talks.
I do give a lot of talks, although this fake list has 4-5 more talks on it than I gave in real life.
As a FSP, I also have had many pizza lunches with female students. Interacting with students is generally the most enjoyable part of a seminar visit and I really appreciate it when departments allow a lot of student/postdoc interaction with a speaker. The science discussions, the career discussions, the life discussions - all are dynamic and great. However, the labels are problematic - when invited for a special 'women in science' lecture or asked to do a special mentoring lunch at a lecture I groan inwardly because it labels the speaker as 'other' and it labels the interactions at the mentoring events as 'other'. Although it may seem like a small thing, it is not - it means that faculty and students will not put the visit or the interactions on the same level as they do an unlabeled speaker. Once our department stopped the special labels for female speakers and made sure to include plenty of interaction opportunities for students and postdocs, then it really helped.
Brava, FSP. I was one of the anti-job talk voices. But this is hilarious, and was a nice way to start my day.
@Anonymous 8:05:
I am a new FSP, and I don't mind doing the lunches with students--in fact I like hearing about their work--but it's nice to have something other than pizza. At my graduate school 8-10 students would take the speaker to the campus club, all billed to the department. They had vegetarian, vegan and healthful food options. We grads had a good life.
The typical lunch of pizza and soda gives me a giant sugar rush, followed by crash and dehydration. I don't even drink the soda anymore, just water from the drinking fountain. And I have certainly had FSP's experience of hardly being able to eat anything for being so busy answering questions.
First of all, FSP, love the post.
Second of all:
I am the HSP who got blasted foully by CPP and called a retard by Candid Engineer yesterday for suggesting that job talks pad up the CV.
I am the Candid Engineer who yesterday said that it is "retarded" to invite someone for an interview if you didn't expect to learn something from their job talk. There is a difference in calling an idea "retarded" and calling a person a "retard".
And for more of my candid thoughts, let's focus on this gem:
All my life, I have chosen to be understated rather than overstated. My big fear is to be taken to be smarter than I am and as such, I am extremely intolerant to the slightest form of half truth.
I assume, HSP, that you are a professor of something. If so, then I'm glad you made the cut and have presumably been able to keep your job. But in the academic world of men, my biggest fear is to be taken to be stupider than I am, and as such, I am extremely careful to avoid the trap of women-who-like-to-downplay themselves.
Smart people do a hell of a lot more than avoid padding their CVs- smart people learn how to play the game, and they play to win.
As for me, I like to bring in new stuff into my CV and throw old stuff out. All my life, I have chosen to be understated rather than overstated. My big fear is to be taken to be smarter than I am and as such, I am extremely intolerant to the slightest form of half truth. Job talks do not make the cut as "100% invited" talks. 99.9% isn't enough. The smart ones can afford to be honest.
Big fucking deal. Waddya want? A fucking medal?
CV = everything or however much you want to show but most people (at least here in the US) would like the CV to be long and have every talk in there....
Resume = short, one page long with "who am I and my recent things/the things I want to highlight", mostly for non-academic jobs
Resume with publication list> something industry might want if you apply for something relating to research but you're still supposed to be able to shorten it to a page to tell them Who you are and your biggest achievemtns (mostly closest in time)
FSP> I think that talk list was wonderful!
Thanks for the laugh! I needed it today. I would add schools that have ADVANCE grant and bring in women faculty (not because they don't have them) but to showcase awesome women!
PS I just list invited talks and conference (non-invited) talks.
@Comradephysioprof
Why would I want a medal for outclassing vermin such as you?
Why would I want a medal for outclassing vermin such as you?
AHAHAHAHAH! You crack me the fuck up! Yeah, you are morally superior to all those losers who fail to be "extremely intolerant to the slightest form of half truth", because you are so totally one of the "smart ones [who] can afford to be honest".
Get over yourself, rectitudinous offalscow. No one is impressed by your self-congratulatory wienerstroking blather.
I understand that a CV is to be a record of your professional achievements and noteworthy/important activities. You do not list every single thing that you have ever done, only those that are important. For example, do you list your manuscripts which got rejected for publication?? probably not even though it was something that you did as part of your professional life and probably spent a lot of time on. Similarly while you do list your grant support (and your funding track record is very important to your CV), do you list your grant proposals which didn't get funded?? Do you list patent applications which in the end didn't get patented?? Probably not.
So this means we do all pick and choose what does not go on the CV, clearly we don't all include every single thing we've ever done because not everything you do in your professional life can be classified as an achievement or as noteworthy or important.
Thus on the subject of job interview talks. If it goes on the CV, that means you considered it an achievement or important. I think the importance of job interview talks is relative to the person.
If you are a new grad student who has only ever given a couple of talks or none at all, then a job interview talk is - in relation to YOUR situation - important so I think it's OK to list that. If it's the only talk you've ever given, it's pretty darn significant to your professional life.
If you are a professor who has given many talks in many venues (conferences, symposia, invited talks at those, departmental talks etc) then I think the relative importance to your professional life of job-interview-talks that you gave back when you were a grad student, greatly diminishes and thus to include them on your CV is padding the CV. Just my opinion.
Does the fact that you only got through A-N-G-R mean that you're not angry enough to leave your current locale after all? Or perhaps Y is coming up in December....
"Does the fact that you only got through A-N-G-R mean that you're not angry enough to leave your current locale after all? Or perhaps Y is coming up in December...."
ONE LETTER IS MISSING! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-D_S7WOnjg
FSP, this post cracked me up.
The comments are also funny- I'm always amused when a new person shows up and picks a fight with CPP. In this case I agree with CPP and Candid Engineer. But I don't like to split hairs. 99.9% and I start asking "how many sig figs? Oh, then it's 100."
I recently gave a talk that fit several categories here, and also coincidentally turned out to be a university that has no women faculty in my field. That was really strange for me. I deliberately picked my grad school and postdoc universities based on their higher ratios of women professors than the average. But I did not think that there were still places with NONE who actually have significant funding. I think this could be the basis for legal action for title IX enforcement: no more funding for hiring men until they hire some women. Hard to believe it's 2009.
You have no idea how long and bloated a CV can be until you get one from an engineer who consults and does research. Got one once that easily exceeded 50 pages, and no, the typeface was not 14 point.
Next year, we limited everyone to five pages and got a lot of bleating
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